Author Topic: Help pls deciphering german records  (Read 10712 times)

Offline apwright

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Re: Help pls deciphering german records
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 09 November 11 15:58 GMT (UK) »
Röthlisberger
1839
Aug. 4. - Maria - geb[oren] 24. Jul. - zu Signau.
Par[entes]
Mathys Röthlisberger, Ulrichs, von Langnau, im Hambühl
Anna Wermuth, Joh[ann] Ulrichs, von Eggiwyl.
Test[es]
Ulrich Reiner, von Signau, im Hämeli
Anna Röthlisberger geb[orene] Lüthi, zu Ramsey
Elisabeth Wermuth, der Mutter Schwester.


August 4, Maria, born 24 July, at Signau.
Parents:
Mathys Röthlisberger, son of Ulrich from Langnau, [residing] at Hambühl
Anna Wermuth, daughter of Johann Ulrich, from Eggiwyl.
Witnesses:
Ulrich Reiner, from Signau, at Hämeli
Anna Röthlisberger nee Lüthi, at Ramsey
Elisabeth Wermuth, the mother's sister.

======
Sonntag den 31ten Christmonats
Eltern
Johannes Messerli, Johanns von hier,
Zimmermeister, im Eggen.
Magdalena Roth geb[orene] Grünig, vom Buch-
holterberg.
Cop[uliert] Thun 23 Januar 1841
Kind
Magdalena geb[oren] d[en] 19ten Dec: 1843.
Zeugen
Samuel Hahni von Rüggisberg.
Anna Wenger geb[orene] Krebs, Christians
Wittwe von hier, im Höstettli.
Elisabeth Messerli geb[orene] Stübi, Jakobs Ehe-
frau von hier.


Sunday 31 December
Parents
Johannes Messerli, son of Johann from here, master carpenter, residing at Eggen.
Magdalena Roth nee Grünig, from Buchholterberg.
Married at Thun 23 January 1841
Child
Magdalena born 19 December 1843.
Witnesses
Samuel Hahni from Rüggisberg.
Anna Wenger nee Krebs, widow of Christian from here, at Höstettli.
Elisabeth Messerli nee Stübi, wife of Jakob from here.

Many of the places are old farms/estates, now hamlets of just a couple of houses.
Hambühl, Hämeli and Ramsey are on the hills between Signau and Eggiwyl (=Eggiwil).
Google Earth/Maps coordinates:
Hambühl 46.90105 7.75952
Hämeli = Hinterfuhren/Hinderfuure 46.90004 7.75011 (now a pub and an open-air theatre!)
Ramsey = Ramsei 46.91022 7.75372

Where was the church in your second record?
Buchholterberg and Rüeggisberg are down towards Thun. Höstettli is just outside Wattenwil at 46.76585 7.50218.
There are several places called Eggen in Bern Canton, five of them between Rüeggisberg and Thun! So I've no idea which one is meant here. Perhaps whichever is closest to the place where the baptism was held.

Adrian

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Offline MattH

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Re: Help pls deciphering german records
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 09 November 11 19:40 GMT (UK) »
Justin,
Thanks for the information. I'm trying to find a record that might have an occupation for Mathys Rothlisberger and haven't been successful. I've posted his marriage record. Maybe you can decipher whether or not there's something interesting on there.
Also, for some reason, I had a difficult time finding this post from the link in my e-mail. I wonder what the problem is?
Anyway, thanks again!

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Offline apwright

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Re: Help pls deciphering german records
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 09 November 11 20:27 GMT (UK) »
Röthlisberger Mathys Ulr[ichs] von hier, im Hambühl K[irche] Signau
Auszüger, get[auft] 25t Merz 1803. Einzug bezahlt.
Anna Wermuth Hans Ulr[ichs] von Eggiwil get[auft] 18t aug. 1811.


getauft = baptised
...and you can probably work out most of the rest :)

Bit hard to explain Auszüger and Einzug bezahlt, but I'll try...
Auszug = lit. moving out, Auszüger is literally one who moves out
Einzug = lit. moving in
bezahlt = paid for
What all this means is that Mathys's father Ulrich was the farmer in charge at Hambühl farm.
But now that Mathys is getting married, he has come into his inheritance and is taking over the farm. Ulrich is "moving out", i.e. retiring and usually moving to a smaller dwelling on the same farm, and Mathys is "moving in", i.e. taking over the farm and settling in the main house with his new wife. This takeover is obviously subject to some sort of ownership transfer fee/inheritance tax, and the record shows that this has been paid, so everything is OK.
I don't know if there's a concise English equivalent expression for this procedure, but a short translation for Auszüger in this case would be something like "retired farmer".

Hope this helps!
Adrian

Offline MattH

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Re: Help pls deciphering german records
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 09 November 11 20:32 GMT (UK) »
Thanks, Adrian! What probably would help knowing is that Ulrich had less than a year to live, which explains why the transfer. I may need more help later, but this is perfect for now!

Offline JustinL

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Re: Help pls deciphering german records
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 10 November 11 07:31 GMT (UK) »
Adrian's description of an Auszüger certainly applies to Germany. However, in Switzerland, it seems that an Auszüger was a soldier in the local militia.

Have a look here, Adrian. http://www.rootschat.com/links/0gs0/

The opening paragraph reads:

Die Auszüger sind bestimmt, den Dienst im Canton und als Zuzug bey einer Eidgenößischen Armee zu verrichten, und sollen demnach als ein auserlesenes Corps von verschiedenen Waffen, vorzüglich wohl im Dienst unterrichtet auch nach und nach auf Kosten der MilitairCassa bewaffnet und gekleidet werden.

The Auszüger are to perform military service in the Canton and as reinforcement for the Federal Army, and shall accordingly, as a variably armed separate Corps, be preferrably instructed in service and, gradually, armed and clothed at the expense of the Military Exchequer.

Rgds, Justin



Offline apwright

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Re: Help pls deciphering german records
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 10 November 11 10:05 GMT (UK) »
Hmmmm, you might be right there, Justin! (Sorry, Matt!)
However, see p.95: Auszüger were (normally, with a few exceptions) men of the erste Altersklasse, i.e. unmarried men between their 20th and 31st birthdays. Mathys is older than this, if baptised in 1803 and married in 1836, and Ulrich would be in his 50s at least.
Perhaps colloquially the word could refer to any militiaman??

I've also been thinking about "Einzug bezahlt". I don't think now that it has anything to do with inheritance, or even with the militia (you didn't pay to join up; you were conscripted by lots. But perhaps you could pay to be exempted?).
In Switzerland if you married someone in a different parish from your "home" parish, you had to pay to be admitted to the new parish. This "admission fee" was called the Heiratseinzug, which I think is what is meant here, as Mathys was from Signau parish and Anna came from Eggiwil.

Matt, can you please tell us where this marriage took place?

Adrian

Offline JustinL

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Re: Help pls deciphering german records
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 10 November 11 10:38 GMT (UK) »
I hope you can read German, Matt, because the book that I found on google makes interesting reading.

For men conscripted as Auszüger after 1st Jan 1818, military service lasted 12 years!! It would seem that Mathys was still serving, having been called up anytime between c1823 and c1833 (his 19th and 30th birthdays).

Adrian - I tend to agree with your interpretation of the Einzug payment. I have come across it in Bavaria as well.

Justin

Offline MattH

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Re: Help pls deciphering german records
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 10 November 11 13:54 GMT (UK) »
Justin and Adrian,
Thanks for all of this new information and sorry for not getting back with you sooner. Mathys's marriage to Anna Wermuth took place in Langnau in Emmental. I also have Mathys born there as well, although I haven't personally seen the books.
I'll have a look into that book. My German is decent, but it'll take me a bit to read it since the type is old. I am aware of the current Swiss requirements for army service, but I don't think it's as grueling as 12 years!
Just for your information as well, I have Ulrich's death in 1835 in Langnau, which means he was dead by Mathys's marriage. I've also posted the death record of Mathys for you to read/decipher.
Anyway, let me know if you find anything else. I love learning about the social context of these people's lives. Thanks!

Offline MattH

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Re: Help pls deciphering german records
« Reply #17 on: Thursday 10 November 11 14:29 GMT (UK) »
I just found Ulrich's death registration for you to read. Maybe there will be something of interest in there. I do know his father was Ulrich, although I cannot make out if that's mentioned in here.