Author Topic: commonlaw - how to find records?  (Read 5056 times)

Offline Burrow Digger

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commonlaw - how to find records?
« on: Tuesday 10 May 05 04:12 BST (UK) »
I'm looking for the names James Simpson and Elizabeth Wall, in South Ronaldsay, Orkney (sometime prior to 1837) and have not been able to locate any marriage certificate for them despite searching for 10 years.

I've just recently learned that in Scotland it was perfectly acceptable for couples to live together as common-law, and still have all the children baptised in the local church, and nothing was thought bad about this arrangement. Something to do with the woman "proving" she was fertile. Whereas in England, if any couple were not married, the kids were seen as "illegitimate".

Now my question is, if my 2 names mentioned above were common-law, is there any sort of record I can use to locate them, their children and their parents?

So far I have not been able to locate them in the 1841 census.

BD




BURROW, BICKHAM, EVANS, SULLEY, STONE - Devon
STEPHENS, MALLET, ADAMS - Cornwall
HANCOCK , BUSSON - Somerset
MCCALLUM, MCDIARMID, MCNEILL - Argyle, Scotland
WALLS, SUTHERLAND, SIMPSON - Orkney, Scotland
FAIRBAIRN - Fife, Scotland
THOMPSON - Aberdeen, Scotland

Offline Rian

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Re: commonlaw - how to find records?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 12 May 05 00:11 BST (UK) »
Try this site, I've found it very useful for Orkney and Shetland research:

http://www.cursiter.com
Go to "indices of birth" etc and find the surname Wallace (Walls are included) — no Simpsons though.

Elizabeth WALLS (F)...................  C: 24 Aug 1823                                                                         
  Father: Malcolm WALLS                    South Ronaldsay, Orkney, Scotland                                                   
  Mother: Christian BRUCE       

There are a number of other possibles including a Bettie Wals, but I'll let you browse them as there are too many to include here.
I hope this is helpful.
Rian.                                                                                               
Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Offline Burrow Digger

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Re: commonlaw - how to find records?
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 12 May 05 12:24 BST (UK) »
I've looked thru the cursiter site so many times.   ::)

I think Liz daughter of Malcom & Christie would be only 14 in 1837 when my Liz was baptized. so I had ruled her out. But then I've also recently learned that girls were allowed to get married after age 12 with parental consent. So does anyone have any children or a husband listed for Liz Wallace?

I am leaning towards Bettie Wals daughter of Elspit & William Waals (nee sutherland). Bettie & Elspit were living in Oback in the 1821 census. Just down the road in Widewall was a fellow named James Simpson. 

I know we are not supposed to find people to fit our proof, but I cant seem to find any proof at all.  :o

And I've learned from Scotlandspeople that my Liz  Simpson was baptised in South Parish. We always thought she was baptised in St Margarets Hope which is in North Parish.

So does anyone have any other suggestions?

Thanks

BD
BURROW, BICKHAM, EVANS, SULLEY, STONE - Devon
STEPHENS, MALLET, ADAMS - Cornwall
HANCOCK , BUSSON - Somerset
MCCALLUM, MCDIARMID, MCNEILL - Argyle, Scotland
WALLS, SUTHERLAND, SIMPSON - Orkney, Scotland
FAIRBAIRN - Fife, Scotland
THOMPSON - Aberdeen, Scotland

Offline kenjo

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Re: commonlaw - how to find records?
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 29 May 05 13:24 BST (UK) »
Hi,
I had a look at familysearch, and found an Elizabeth Simpson, with father James simpson, and mother Elizabeth Walls, the only thing are the entrys,,,,,,,,, born, 6/3/1823, and Christened 9/4/1837...........
If this entry is true, she would have been 14yrs, when christened.
Because this is the only child I could find???????
I feel that, she was illegitimate, but the father was quite happy to take responsiblity. according to the church.

The other thing is .      Have you  ordered the Parish records and viewed the Kirk sessions on the film. this could say if she was illegitimate.

And if this entry is correct, [the birth , I mean].
then mum would have been born around the very early 1800s.
What do you think?
kenjo ???
Pattillo, Connon, Shand, Mackie, Hickey, Brooks, Ryan.


Offline Burrow Digger

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Re: commonlaw - how to find records?
« Reply #4 on: Monday 30 May 05 01:56 BST (UK) »
as far as I know that is the correct person.

I'm not worried about Liz being born out of wedlock. But without a marriage certificate I cannot pinpoint her parents with any accuracy. I do have her christening record which says the following.

Simpson, Elizabeth daughter of James Simpson servant in Widewall, and Elizabeth Walls there, was born Sixth March Eighteen hundred and Twenty three, and baptized Ninth April, in presence of North Congregation.
Parish of South Ronaldsay & Burray
Old Parochial Register of Births & Baptisms dated 9 April 1837


So James Simpson at Widewall (who was a servant there and was aged 19 in the 1821 census) was  Elizabeth's father. 

My questions now are -

Who was Elizabeth Walls?
When & where was she born?
And when & where was James Simpson born?

BD
BURROW, BICKHAM, EVANS, SULLEY, STONE - Devon
STEPHENS, MALLET, ADAMS - Cornwall
HANCOCK , BUSSON - Somerset
MCCALLUM, MCDIARMID, MCNEILL - Argyle, Scotland
WALLS, SUTHERLAND, SIMPSON - Orkney, Scotland
FAIRBAIRN - Fife, Scotland
THOMPSON - Aberdeen, Scotland

Offline kenjo

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Re: commonlaw - how to find records?
« Reply #5 on: Monday 30 May 05 02:12 BST (UK) »
Do you have Elizabeth Simpson marrying?
kenjo
Pattillo, Connon, Shand, Mackie, Hickey, Brooks, Ryan.

Offline JAP

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Re: commonlaw - how to find records?
« Reply #6 on: Monday 12 September 05 13:37 BST (UK) »
Hi BD,

You linked this from another thread; I've read it with interest plus some other information.

I take it you have proof from other sources that Elizabeth SIMPSON who married Thomas FAIRBAIRN in Edinburgh in 1856, parents James SIMPSON and Elizabeth ?WALLS did come from South Ronaldsay, Orkney?

If so, then I think that you can count yourself lucky indeed to have as much information as you do.  Many of us tracing ancestors in the British Isles would love to have an 1821 census!  As for having it online as it is at http://www.southronaldsay.net/  Wow!  Not to mention the informative entry for Elizabeth's baptism.

Before the introduction of civil registration in Scotland in 1855, many church registers (of whatever denomination) were very poorly kept, and many people did not marry with the benefit of clergy, and many people did not baptize their children (apart from anything else, they couldn't always afford to - or they were too far from a church which had a regular minister).  Also, it is mainly (though not always) only the Parish Registers of the Established Presbyterian Church of Scotland which have been indexed into the IGI and into the (more complete) Scottish Church Records CD (available to consult at LDS FHCs) and into SP.  Registers of other denominations may well not have survived and/or may not have been indexed.

However it seems likely that the wife of James SIMPSON, 19, servant in Widewall in 1821, was - also appearing in that census - 16yo Betty WALLS in Widewall with Elspit SUTHERLAND (this census is a situation where the Scots practice of maintaining women's maiden surnames is a mixed blessing; great to find Elspit's surname but there aren't many SIMPSONs around - however, if James's mother is there and is a widow, she'a probably under her maiden surname ...).

I wonder whether the baptism entry means only that James was a servant in Widewall at the time of the birth and Elizabeth also of Widewall at that time, or that James and Elizabeth are still there in 1837 ...  And perhaps Elizabeth SIMPSON's description of her father as a Ship Builder is gilding the lily (as she did with her age).

As far as marriage in Scotland is concerned, a few comments.

Parental consent has never been needed in Scotland - and is still not.

Marriage in Scotland was regarded as a matter of mutual consent.  Up until the Marriage (Scotland) Act 1939 (which came into effect in July 1940) there were several forms of perfectly legal marriage.
(a) 'regular' marriage
This was what the clergy chose to call marriages which they celebrated - though, legally, they were just a form of declaration of mutual consent in front of witnesses.
(b) 'irregular' marriage
'Irregular' was, in my view, a cruel word imposed by the clergy to describe what were valid legal marriages but in which clergy were not involved.  You will sometimes see reference in church registers to a couple producing 'lines of irregular marriage' and often being criticized by the clergy/kirk session.  There were three sorts of 'irregular' marriage:
(i) by declaration (i.e. mutual consent) in front of witnesses. 
(ii) by habit and repute i.e. living together as man and wife and being accepted by everyone as such
(iii) by a promise of marriage followed by consummation of the marriage.
But all were valid legal marriages and the children of those marriages were legitimate.

Declaration in front of witnesses developed over time into effectively a civil marriage prior to the formalizing of such by the 1939 Act.  After 1855, people who had married e.g. by declaration and who felt the need to have their marriage entered into the civil registers could get a 'Warrant of Sheriff Substitute' (i.e. formal certification that the marriage by declaration had taken place) and could then get a marriage certificate issued by the Civil Registrar.  This continued with vastly simpler procedures and ease until the 1939 Act made it unnecessary - but, up till then, the horrid and misleading word 'Irregular' still appeared on their marriage certificates!  And all of this means that, even up until 1940, people could be quite validly and legally married without having a marriage certificate!

Well, you probably didn't want to know all that - but it does put a different slant on many things.

And given the way the baptism entry is worded, I would suspect that James and Elizabeth had been married with benefit of clergy - there's no mention of 'born in fornication' (a favourite phrase of Scots clergy of the time) or of 'irregular marriage'.

I take it that you have tried the 1841 census of South Ronaldsay without success?  If and when the 1841 and 1851 censuses (indexed Scotland-wide) come online on SP, perhaps you will find Elizabeth SIMPSON, and also James SIMPSON and wife Elizabeth.  This might help to locate where they are so you can trace their death certificates (hopefully they survived till 1855).

Have you tried for the death cert of Elizabeth (WALLS) SIMPSON on SP?  Death certs for women are indexed by married and (if known) maiden surname.  So, if you found on SP an Elizabeth SIMPSON and an Elizabeth WALLS dying in the same year and with the same GROS reference, it might well be yours.  And Scottish death certificates list the parents of the deceased (if known) including name and occupation of father and name and maiden surname of mother.

Good luck!

JAP

Offline Burrow Digger

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Re: commonlaw - how to find records?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 14 November 08 03:11 GMT (UK) »
Its now 3 years later since I started this thread, and just this week, I recieved a bolt from the sky.

Above in this thread is what I knew 3 years ago.
And its the same as what I knew last week.

Liz Simpson was born in Orkneys in 1823. Her mother was Liz Walls and her father was James Simpson. Liz Walls parents were possibly William Walls (Wass) and Liz Sutherland, and she possibly had a brother named Sutherland walls

This totally unknown woman back in NZ (my country of birth) sent me an email this week saying this.

Elizabeth Fairbairn was the daughter of  Elizabeth Welles ( Wales / Wallace) who was the 2nd wife of my gt gt gt grandfather Thomas Robertson. They were married in Edinburgh on 28.5.1842
And came to NZ on the Philip Laing. He had 7 children by his first wife (Janet Pate /Peat) and they had 2 more together.
The death certificate for Elizabeth Fairbairn states her mother was Elizabeth Simpson but I do not think she had married Elizabeth’s father as she married Thomas as Elizabeth Welles.
Elizabeth Fairbairn had 8 children – 3 born Scotland and 5 born NZ.


The Philip Laing in NZ is like the Mayflower in USA. It was the FIRST ship to arrive in Dunedin, Otago (South Island, NZ) with settlers. 

I have never been able to find Liz Walls in the orkneys in the 1841 - none that matched by date. If she married thomas robertson in edinburgh in 1842, then she was probably in edinburgh in 1841, with her daughter. Which could explain why Liz Simpson was baptised in 1837. Because she and her mother were moving to the mainland.

Another comment this woman sent to me.

Donald Hansen in GRINZ Yearbook 1993 quotes a letter written in 1842 by a NZ Company agent who recommended the Robertson family for emigration to NZ

“Robertson’s wife who is from the Orkney Islands had about 20 years ago a natural daughter without whom she says she cannot go.I was much surprised at hearing this.I thought the respectability of her appearance indicated anything but looseness of Morals, & in fact the said child being born 20 years ago the mothers slip can only be considered an act of youthful indiscretion. The girl’s name is Elizabeth Simpson she at present resides in South Ronaldsay in the Orkneys.”

Public Records Office,Kew, London . CO208/37: New Zealand Company, Original Correspondence inward (general), 1842.Letter 42/6740.


And to make things even better - she gave me this info as well.

Elizabeth Wells was born 1805 Orkney Islands .

Daughter of William Wells.


That alone confirms that her parents were William Walls/Wass and Elspit Sutherland, and she had a brother Sutherland Walls born 1802.

I already had this info but no confirmation. I also had no idea that Liz walls had married and moved half way around the world and died in my own country. I dont think anyone from my family knows this.

And finally I recived a transcript of Liz Walls death certificate

Elizabeth d 2.4.1865 Andersons Bay (Dunedin, NZ)
60 years
Wife of Thomas Robertson, farmer, Andersons Bay
Cause of death “ ramollessement of the spinal nerves”
Informant J.Charles Miller, farmer, Tomahawk Valley
Registrar John Gillies


I have finally been able to officially add 2 generations to the family tree (Liz Walls and Liz Sutherland) that last week were probables and this week are definites.
BURROW, BICKHAM, EVANS, SULLEY, STONE - Devon
STEPHENS, MALLET, ADAMS - Cornwall
HANCOCK , BUSSON - Somerset
MCCALLUM, MCDIARMID, MCNEILL - Argyle, Scotland
WALLS, SUTHERLAND, SIMPSON - Orkney, Scotland
FAIRBAIRN - Fife, Scotland
THOMPSON - Aberdeen, Scotland