Author Topic: St Michaels Garston Liverpool  (Read 15554 times)

Offline Rammy Jack

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Re: St Michaels Garston Liverpool
« Reply #45 on: Tuesday 16 January 18 15:14 GMT (UK) »
In 1846 James Prophet married Elizabeth Dougherty. In that year Robert Prophet was born in Garston, and in the 1851 census they lived at the Saltworks, along with a daughter Elizabeth born 1848.

In 1861 they are at the Saltworks but the daughter is not shown. His wife by now is Elizabeth Shaw. Robert is a Salt boilers assistant. Another son John Wainwright Prophet died in 1854 aged 2.

By 1871 they had moved to the Victoria and James father Allen had moved in with them. No sign of Robert. In 1879 another son, James, died aged one month

By 1871 Robert appears to have married and moved to Birkenhead

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Offline md860

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Re: St Michaels Garston Liverpool
« Reply #46 on: Sunday 21 January 18 19:59 GMT (UK) »
Hi Rammy Jack, maybe a spanner in the works, but I have Elizabeth Prophet's (Dougherty) death certificate and she past away at Sinclair street on the 10th December 1878 aged 45 years. I join the Prophets through their daughter Elizabeth (b.1/5/1845) who married John Davies of Sinclair street and left Garston for Swansea in 1870. I have a few certificates relating to James and I also have his father Allen's death certificate if you want any copies. If it is at all possible I would love a copy of the photo of James you have. I visited Garston last year and had a good ramble around and it was great to see the Victoria pub. We met a really nice lady in St Micheal's church and she showed us some of the books and where the Prophet family grave was, so we had some great photos and a great day. I'm struggling to find any further back on the John Davies side, He was born in Seacombe Cheshire in 1849, his fathers name was George Davies. John and Elizabeth married in St Nicholas Church Liverpool 16th October 1866. Any help on George would be gratefully received. Thank you...

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Offline md860

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Re: St Michaels Garston Liverpool
« Reply #47 on: Sunday 21 January 18 20:33 GMT (UK) »
Sorry, throwing a spanner in my own works here.....I didn't know of the marriage to Elizabeth Shaw. I should have studied the grave photos I have a little more closely. So thanks for that new info...

Offline Rammy Jack

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Re: St Michaels Garston Liverpool
« Reply #48 on: Monday 22 January 18 17:15 GMT (UK) »
Yes looks like you fell into the same trap as I did.
James married two different Elizabeths which really threw me until I eventually worked it out.

He married Elizabeth Dougherty on 7th June 1846 when she was 19 years old. Elizabeth Dougherty died on 28th February 1850, and James more or less immediately married Elizabeth Shaw on 16th June 1850. Hence 2 wives called Elizabeth Prophet...........
Elizabeth Shaw died on 10th December 1878. So the death certificate you have is actually for Elizabeth Shaw.
The bit that's puzzling me is that Elizabeth (b 1/5/1845) was a full year before his first marriage. If that's so James was only 16 when she was conceived.

I have  two or three pictures of James and I traced his father Allen back too. You are welcome to copies of these and obviously I would welcome the ones you have.

Offline md860

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Re: St Michaels Garston Liverpool
« Reply #49 on: Monday 22 January 18 20:52 GMT (UK) »
Hi, apologise again. ! should have typed 1 may 1848 for the birth of Elizabeth at 25 mill street toxteth park. Two years after James and Elizabeth Dougherty married..

Offline HuwAlun

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Re: St Michaels Garston Liverpool
« Reply #50 on: Friday 09 February 18 14:11 GMT (UK) »
Wow!  All these chats are proving very interesting.  I too have merged the two Elizabeths into one, and was not aware that Elizabeth Dougherty died so young.  Interestingly, I have Elizabeth Dougherty born in 1832, marrying in June 1846 and giving birth to Robert, my great grandfather, in August of that year - so she was 14, and six months pregnant when she got married! At that time, as I understand it, the law required that the bride be at least 12 years old, and the groom at least 14 - and that anyone getting married has to have the parents' permission to do so.  As Allen Prophet and Hugh Dougherty are both cited in the wedding record, I assume that the wedding was undertaken with due respect to the law!
If ED was indeed born in 1832, she was only 18 or 19 when she died - a very sad thought.
As far as Robert is concerned, I can tell you that he ran the Ring O'Bells pub in St Helens - a location quite close to the town centre, but the pub no longer exists.
Ar dystysgrif geni Edith (1878), Occupation Inkeeper of Westfield St, St Helens

Occupation: Boilermaker (from his son's (John Stephen) birth cert 1871)
He was a Rivetter by the time his youngest daughter was born (Mary Ann - known in our family as Aunty Pop) in 1880.

4/13/- was paid to John Simpson, undertaker (22&151, Old Chester Rd, Tranmere) for funeral of the late  Robert Profit(sic) at Bebington Cemetry.  His gravestone is still there and clearly marked.
Cause of death: 'Accidentally killed by falling into a graving dock'
Inquest held 3/12/87 by Henry Churton, Coroner for Birkenhead.
On his gravestone, his age is recorded as 43 (and also on his wife Elizabeth's grave in Rake Lane Wallasey)
He died at 177 Old Chester Road - now a Salvation Army building in Rock Ferry.
Robert had one son and four daughters:

 ROBERT PROPHET  was born 23 Aug 1846 in Garston, and died 02Dec 1887 in 177 Old Chester Rd, Tranmere.  He married ELIZABETH MAIRE STEPHEN 1870 in Wirral.  She was born 1844, and died 12 March 1913 in Birkenhead.

Notes for ELIZABETH MAIRE STEPHEN:
after Robert's death, took up 'Quakers'(?) a business at shop corner of Lucerne St and Wheatland Rd.

Children of ROBERT PROPHET and ELIZABETH STEPHEN are:
2.   i.   ELIZABETH MAIRE PROPHET, b. 1873, St Helens; d. about March 1947, Wallasey.
   ii.   JOHN STEPHEN PROPHET, b. 14 Meh 1871, Poulton cum Seacombe.
3.   iii.   FLORENCE PROPHET, b. 1876, St Helens?.
4.   iv.   EDITH ANN PROPHET, b. 26 July 1878, St Helens?; d. about 1960.
   v.   MARY ANN PROPHET, b. 05 Aug 1880, 5, Belle Vue Road, Poolton cum Seacombe; d. 26 March 1956, Wallasey?; m. T. A. PERCY JONES; d. 20 August 1943, Wallasey?.

Elizabeth Maire (yes! another Elizabeth!), my grandmother, died before I was born in 1951.  I do recall Mary Ann (Aunty Pop) who was always so generous and loving.  Sadly she had no children of her own.  I also remember Edith who married James Pappin and, when I remember them, lived in Wallasey with their only child, Dorothy who married Donald Pinches and had one child, Hilary who now lives with her family in Irby.

I would be grateful of any other information anyone has on this, and am delighted with the latest info posted here.  It would be really good to have a copy of the photo of James Prophet outside the Victoria!



Offline Rammy Jack

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Re: St Michaels Garston Liverpool
« Reply #51 on: Friday 09 February 18 16:33 GMT (UK) »
Hi Huw
You are yet another cousin from James Prophet...... :o
From other records I have tracked down it appears that Elizabeth Dougherty was born in 1827 so she was actually 19 years old when she married James, who was 18 at the time. As you say Robert was born soon after.
The information that you have gleaned makes very interesting reading.
My grandmother was Ann Jane Prophet from his 3rd marriage to Jane Hazelhurst, born in 1881. She married Henry George Vernon Griffiths from West Derby. They moved to Bury after their marriage in 1907. He became manager of the local WH Smiths on Bury station.
If you let me have your email address I'll forward a copy of the picture of James outside the Victoria.

Offline Rammy Jack

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Re: St Michaels Garston Liverpool
« Reply #52 on: Monday 12 February 18 14:47 GMT (UK) »
Elizabeth Prophet nee Dougherty is quoted as being 23 at the time of her death on 28/2/1850, giving her a year of birth of 1827. Robert was born in 1823. Hence 4 years before her death making her 19 years old when Robert was born.
The confusion may have arisen in the 1851 census showing Elizabeth Proffit (sic) being born in 1832 but this Elizabeth was Elizabeth Shaw who became James second wife in 1850. There were under 4 months between the first Elizabeth dying and him marrying the second.
Robert Prophet is on this census (1851) aged 5 and Elizabeth is 3 years old. Elizabeth was born to Elizabeth Dougherty on 1st May 1848 and married  John Davies and moved to Swansea.
The comments from Mark (MD860) on Roots chat relate to this. It would appear that you and mark have the same greatgrandparents James and Elizabeth Dougherty. Mine are James and Jane Hazelhurst (His 3rd wife).
Very complex.