Author Topic: James McKenzie Born Edinburgh  (Read 14214 times)

Offline pndorman

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Re: James McKenzie Born Edinburgh
« Reply #36 on: Tuesday 12 January 16 21:08 GMT (UK) »
Hello all,
Very excited to find information about James McKenzie! I'm a Dorman descended from Thomas Dorman a brother of Catherine who married James.
Here's what I 've found out.
Catherine and James were married to each other twice!. The first marriage appears in a civil marriage record in 1877. Catherine marries Private James McKenzie of Edinburgh, a soldier of the Southern Highlanders 97th of Foot based at Beggars Bush Barracks. A church marriage of the same couple appears in Church Parish records a year later in September 1878. A note on the church record tells us that the couple are already civilly married. It reads:

“This couple, being both Catholic, were married by the registrar a year ago”

Catherine and James are to have their first child a month later.

At the Civil marriage, Catherine lived at 23 upper Mount Street (around the corner from James' Barracks)  This is a very grand house and she is no doubt in service there. The owner of 23 upper Mount Street was (probably) William Bloomfield Solicitor (Thoms street directory) 
I have found records of their children as follows.
15th Sept 1878 Thomas. Sponsor Margaret Darman 23 Earl st.
Catherine 1880. 11 Lr King st. sponsor Catherine Donohue.?
John 7th may 1880. 38 Common St. sponsors Thomas Rorke and Maria Dorman.
Mary 1885 (census)
Catherine 1887 128 Townsend St. sponsor William Cooper, Jane Byrne.
James 1889 1 Grattan Court. Sponsors Thomas McKenzie, Catherine Nichol
Hannah Ellen 1893 1 Peterson’s lane. Sponsor Maggie Dorman
Louisa 1895 (Census)

They appear in the Census' as follows.
1901 135.8 Townsend St. James is quay labourer.
1911 17.1 Denzille St. Catherine deceased. James; Carpet Planner.

Catherine's death was on 20th October 1901 aged 42 135 Townsend St. General disability. Occupation carpet planner.  Informant James McKenzie . (Glasnevin Trust) Vol 2 Page 468 Dublin South. No other family member in grave . I haven't looked for James' death but I will now.

Sadly Catherine had her demons and was imprisoned a number of times for drunkeness. She was also imprisoned once in 1896 for neglect of her children.
If you are interested I can try to upload documents and see if I can uncover more of James life here in Dublin.

Best wishes

Peter

Offline pndorman

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Re: James McKenzie Born Edinburgh
« Reply #37 on: Thursday 14 January 16 20:32 GMT (UK) »
Some things I should have mentioned.
Catherine's family came from South Wicklow, a beautiful place south of Aughrim town. Catherine was their eldest surviving child born in 1856 or 7. Her mother was Ellen Rorke. Catherine's siblings born in Wicklow were Margaret born 1859, William born 1861 who does not appear to have survived, Mary, born 1864, Thomas (my ancestor) born 1866 and James born 1869.
After James' birth the family moved to 17 Braithwaite Street in Dublin. This area was known as the Golden triangle as there were three large whiskey distilleries here. The dad got a job in a distillery as a fire warden. Another child Hannah, who disappears from records subsequently, was born in 1871. Then disaster strikes. William contracts Scarlet Fever and dies. His youngest son James dies soon after.
The family then moved to Earl Street south - just around the corner.
There is evidence of hardship visited on the family as Thomas, who was enrolled in the local school in 1871 was withdrawn immediately after his dad's death even though the family remain in the catchment. I'm speculating that he had to do something to earn money, even at the age of 6.
Catherine married James in a civil ceremony as i mentioned already, in 1877. I have that record in the house, but can't find it just now. From memory James' Dad is actually named John, not Thomas in that record. His occupation was engineer. It may be an army title.
So why the different name? Perhaps he went by both names - John Thomas or Thomas john. Perhaps the clerk or the priest made an error. None of the participants could read so they wouldn't know. Perhaps James didn't know his father and gave a name to look more respectable - though he is given the specific occupation of engineer which suggests otherwise.
And why the two weddings? They were obviously both Catholics as the note on the church record says so - and I've read that his regiment was known as a Catholic regiment. Maybe they were just not into religion - or they eloped. It must be significant that they marry in church just before the birth of their first child. And they seem to have moved in with Catherine's mother. So it may have been a case of "not under my roof" and/or pressure to be married in church so the child could be baptised.
Catherine's sister Margaret became pregnant out of wedlock with a man named Thomas Lucas, also in 1878. Thomas Lucas disappears after that, and their child Thomas dies in 1880 of Bronchitus. The death record names the infant as Thomas Dorman.
The family appears to be in turmoil in the 1870s and 80s. They move across the city around 1882  to Irvane terrace east wall in the docklands where my ancestor Thomas can find work. However, he is imprisoned aged 16 for assaulting a policeman. The incident took place back in Earl Street South, though Thomas has moved across town - and was a case of "Joint Enterprise". He was in a group one of which threw a rock at a policeman. one boy is plucked from the crowd and Thomas remonstrates and gets himself arrested. In court thomas' brief argues that he didn't throw the missile, but the judge says that "if one of the gang did, they all did!"
 Catherine has some minor brushes with the law including -
On 16th September 1896 while resident at Commons street she is imprisoned for three months for neglecting her children
In October 1897 she is fined for being drunk while living in Gloucester street
in august 1899 she is fined for obscene and profane language while living in Fitzwilliam Lane
Catherine's mother dies of cardiac dropsey aged 56 in 1888.
The family settles down somewhat though, with Catherine's sister Margaret marrying William Cooper from Wexford and Thomas marrying Henrietta Bennett.

Offline benchurian

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Re: James McKenzie Born Edinburgh
« Reply #38 on: Tuesday 23 August 16 21:17 BST (UK) »
Just came on your message, neglect of duty here, have not been on for a while.  You are a mine of info, many thanks.  Where are you living, in Dublin?  I myself am in Spain suffering from too much heat,  :-)    I know the streets you mention quite well and know of the activities in the Gloucester Diamond area a hundred years ago.  I am going to go back into rootschat to see if I can find info on the regiment and James.  I would like to stay in contact with you and gather some more info.  I believe you mentioned you had documents, if so I would love a copy.  My mom, a McKenzie who was James' grandchild, died this year.  There is only one surviving McKenzie from the James Snr. then James Jnr. line, that is an uncle of mine who lives in London.  I must contact him.  Again many thanks for your input into this.
Connor/O Connor, Kiltoom, Westmeath
Duff, Coolure, Mayne, Co. Westmeath
Clancy, Kane, Endrim & Kilpatrick, Kings County
McKenzie, Dublin and Dundee.

Offline Skoosh

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Re: James McKenzie Born Edinburgh
« Reply #39 on: Wednesday 24 August 16 10:00 BST (UK) »
This will be the Sutherland Highlanders, largely recruited in a county with no Catholics to speak of & being from Sutherland was probably an adherent of the Free Kirk.

Skoosh.


Offline pndorman

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Re: James McKenzie Born Edinburgh
« Reply #40 on: Monday 29 August 16 00:19 BST (UK) »
Hi all,
Nice to hear from you Benchurian. I'm living near Dublin now but am from the city. A little Spanish weather would be welcome!
Just reviewed my lengthy post (which was cut and paste from rough notes so apologies for errors) and dug out the civil marriage record for James and Catherine.
It reads - James Mckenzie of full age, a private in the 93rd rgt (not the 97th as I said) of Beggars Bush Barracks Co Dublin - son of John McKenzie, an engineer - to Katherine Dorman - of full age of 23 upper Mount Street, city of Dublin - daughter of William Dorman, a Steward. Witnesses were Sarah Lawlor and Peter Anderson.
As you say Skoosh this is the Sutherland Highlanders, (not the Southern Highlanders) later the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Don't know where I got the Catholic thing from. I seem to remember reading that it was a Catholic regiment but obviously not. The church record which you have gives James' parents as Thomas and Margaret from Alba. The only indication that of where James was born is in the 1901 census where it says he's from "Co Edinberg". Is it likely that an Edinburgh lad would end up in this regiment?
I see in a book called Historical records of the 93rd Sutherland Highlanders by Burgoyne, Roderick Hamilton, ed Published in 1883 pp 348 - 350 which you can see online, that the regiment came to Dublin on 26th March 1876 and went on to the Curragh in Co Kildare on 17th May 1877. James and Catherine married on 11th May 1877.
Good to be in touch. Any thoughts most welcome...
P

Offline Rosinish

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Re: James McKenzie Born Edinburgh
« Reply #41 on: Monday 29 August 16 01:17 BST (UK) »
Hi P,

I would say that the surname McKenzie is more likely of Highland origin & James may have had relatives in/around the area of Sutherland.

Not sure if you know this but "Alba" is the gaelic for Scotland.

Annie
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Offline pndorman

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Re: James McKenzie Born Edinburgh
« Reply #42 on: Thursday 01 September 16 11:40 BST (UK) »
Thanks for that Annie - very helpful.
Perhaps anyone out there with a subscription to the Scotland's People site might search for either a John (an engineer given as father in 1877 civil marriage) or Thomas (given as father in 1878 church marriage) McKenzie - married to a Margaret, with a son James born in the 1850's? I note some earlier posts but perhaps the name John and occupation as engineer might help?
Regarding Alba, yes its similar in Irish - though the priest was supposed to write in Latin!
P

Offline pndorman

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Re: James McKenzie Born Edinburgh
« Reply #43 on: Thursday 01 September 16 12:19 BST (UK) »
Me again,
Actually the Alba thing is a red herring. It was a note I made when I first saw the record years ago - but it actually says dec or "deceased" in the address column for Jamess' folks - as they had died by 1878. Sorry 'bout that. P