[SOLVED - THANKS] A HARPER Conundrum

[cando]

Have you seen this info  -  even confused the researchers here.
http://members.pcug.org.au/~croe/ozb/oz_boer_more.cgi?record=8300

Source:#431 Posting dated 12 August 2002 in the Rootsweb AUS-MILITARY mailing list and emails of 4 & 6 February 2011 from Julie Robinson, England re her grandfather (citing 1999 family history by W Harper)

I wonder why Wilfred gave his age as 46 years 5 months in 1915 when he was only 40 years plus ? months being born 1875.  Wouldn't be the first time I've seen errors in ages on attestation papers but it is usually only the very young who increase their age when enlisting.

It would be interesting to see William James 1875 birth certificate to see what month he was born.  As the age on the attestation paper in Sep 1915 was 46 years 5 months....I wonder if this should have been 40 years 5 months.

I need to look again at the record for HARPER, Samuel born Ireland, in Colony 33 years with wife Hannah and children ? Patrick 10, John 8, Sarah 6, Wm James 3, and ? 1˝ years who were listed in the  Kyneton Hospital register of families.  It is very difficult to read. Lists his father's name which I can't remember.  Get back to this later.

The information on the linked database sounds correct. Samuel died 1902 and Hanorah 1929.  I thought I posted a long post with all that info....probably got side tracked as I am trying to do a number of things at the same time...joys of living on a farm.

Info on death certs only as accurate as the knowledge of the informant but where would the informant get the info about Wilfred's parents.  That parts is obviously correct.  Genealogy is not an exact science and you really need to consider what matches with this info. 

Being called 

Cheers
Cando

[cando]

HARPER Samuel.
Hospital record  Kyneton
Born Ireland  39 years  In Colony 33 years
Father - Harper, Angle. Wheelwright
Parents married - 1862
Mother  Gladhocee, Mary
Spouse: Hanora, Ryan
Kyneton Hospital Record of families of patients 1869-1884.

HARPER  Samuel.
Hospital record  29 June 1877
Place Riddells Creek
Birth Place Ireland.
39 years  Status Married  Occupation Sawyer
Religion - Presbyterian
Kyneton Hospital Admissions Registers 1862 - 1885.
Comment  Discharged 7/7/1877
Result - cured    Fractured ribs
Note or recommender - Accident

This may be of interest
HARPER Stanley Francis.
Funeral notice   Died 29 Jul /91
Cemetery Mildura Cemetery
Father of Mariene

[teckyhead]

This may be of interest
HARPER Stanley Francis.
Funeral notice   Died 29 Jul /91
Cemetery Mildura Cemetery
Father of Mariene

Definitely. That's my Great Uncle Stan. I knew he was born in 1914 and died at Red Cliff but didn't know the date that he died. Thanks!

I found some more info in the military archive. There are 33 documents at http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/scripts/Imagine.asp?B=4420282 and the last few are about his war medals. One of the medals was issued to his widow in 1925, stating that he was deceased. Document no. 31, dated 29/12/24 has 'Widows Address' as 10 Austin Street Footscray. I looked at some electoral records but the only Harper I could find at that address was Ada Harper in 1914. Interestingly Annie/Anna Maria Harper was on the electoral role in Footscray from 1914-1937.

That may well be the Annie Maria that you found the marriage record for .. to William?/Wilfred?.

What a tangled web...

Gary

[cando]

Gary I thought you would have read all the WW1 file before this.  I simply assumed you had all that information.  Yes I also noted the electoral rolls info.  I didn't post it as you said you were using ancestry.  I don't post everthing that I find as you have access to the records.

It is the right marriage record.  I purchased and dowloaded the certificate and typed up all the details.  Yes it is Annie Maria and I have given you her death information also.

I don't think it is a tangled web.  All the information is there.  I think both Wm/Wilfred and Rachel changed their names and Wm E was probably wanted in relation to the desertion of his wife and sons and step children.  It does appear however that when George Eric enlisted his mother signed the consent stating his father was deceased...well I guess he might as well have been

I think I have just about exhausted my resources. 

If you want more validation about Wilfred/Wm James I suggest you download his birth cert to see what month in 1875 he was born and see if it tallies with him being 40 years 5 months in Sept 1915.

I will see if I can find anything in the Police Gazettes....but not tonight

Cheers
Cando

[cando]

http://www.britishmedals.us/files/127scothorse.htm
HARPER    William Ernest    31632*    Trooper    15/02/1901    25/10/1901        Discharged Completion of Service

Once again Wm/Wilfred has not been accurate with his information.  He states on his attestation papers that he had 1 year 11 months active service in South Africa.  As you can see from the transcribed records from Kew he was enlisted for a little over 8 months.

Cando

[teckyhead]

Gary I thought you would have read all the WW1 file before this.  I simply assumed you had all that information.  Yes I also noted the electoral rolls info.  I didn't post it as you said you were using ancestry.  I don't post everthing that I find as you have access to the records.

Yep - sorry. I suffer a bit of information overload from time to time. I think I need to go through and record all of the verified and unverified info and see how it looks.

If you want more validation about Wilfred/Wm James I suggest you download his birth cert to see what month in 1875 he was born and see if it tallies with him being 40 years 5 months in Sept 1915.

I will see if I can find anything in the Police Gazettes....but not tonight

Thanks . I downloaded William's birth certificate and he was born in Riddells Creek on the 14th April 1875 - 40 years and 5 months before his enlistment.

It really does look like William may have done an identity change and lied about his age when he enlisted.

Gary

[Dundee]

http://www.britishmedals.us/files/127scothorse.htm
HARPER    William Ernest    31632*    Trooper    15/02/1901    25/10/1901        Discharged Completion of Service

Once again Wm/Wilfred has not been accurate with his information.  He states on his attestation papers that he had 1 year 11 months active service in South Africa.  As you can see from the transcribed records from Kew he was enlisted for a little over 8 months.

Cando

Just adding in relation to the info on this website
http://members.pcug.org.au/~croe/ozb/oz_boer_more.cgi?record=8300

There was a William John E(a)rnest HARPER who enlisted in the 5th Batt. WW1 and who says he also served in the 3rd NSW Imperial Bushmen in South Africa.  This is the person that source 1047 is referring to.

Source 431 gives details for your man and is saying that they are not the same person.  There was perhaps confusion at some stage between researchers. (Possibly because they both married to a SMITH, though WJE's wife appears to have actually been a SCHMIDT)

I think they are saying that it was William John Ernest who was awarded the QSA medal, not Wilfred.   

Debra 

[teckyhead]

I found a record in the PROV database that looks like it relates to the arrest of William E Harper reported on Feb 20 1907. There was a William E Harper convicted on Jan 23 1908. The offence is listed as 'maintenance'. Under 'Sentence' it says 'To pay 5/- weekly' and then says 'In default Imprisonment Indefinite'. The case was tried at 'Gisborne Petty Sessions'.

For personal details it says height was 5ft 6 1/2", hair brown and eyes grey. Date of birth says 1876. Under 'previous history' it just says 'married'. He was held at Melbourne Gaol from 24 Jan 1908 until 11 Jul 1908 and there's a note in red with the release date that says 'To Freedom Special Authority'. His occupation says 'hair dresser' which is interesting as the other part of the arrest involved theft of hair clippers.

The medical info for Wilfred Ernest Harper's enlistment in 1915 says his height was 5ft 6 1/4", hair grey and eyes grey.

Gary

[sparrett]

There was a William John E(a)rnest HARPER who enlisted in the 5th Batt. WW1 and who says he also served in the 3rd NSW Imperial Bushmen in South Africa.  This is the person that source 1047 is referring to. DEBRA

Forgive me if this birth has already been posted 

HARPER Wm John Ernest
Father Alfred Joseph
Mother Mary SMITH
Birth Place WOOD
Year 1881
Reg Number 27017


Sue