Author Topic: Esau & Henty Smith of the Black Patch & the Charlie Chaplin mystery  (Read 3210 times)

Offline Mr Edd

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Esau & Henty Smith of the Black Patch & the Charlie Chaplin mystery
« on: Wednesday 22 February 12 16:44 GMT (UK) »
Hi All

I think most of you with links to the Black Patch will have heard the Charlie Chaplin story by now. If not there's plenty online.

I have recently made a connection between Absolom Smith king of the Gypsies who died at Twyford, Leicestershire in 1826 (who was a brother of Jasper)
linking them to & Esau & Henty King & Queen of the Black Patch.

This is thanks to another researcher. Anyway this alleged link to Chaplin is through is mother Hannah Hill (also noted online as Hannah Smith Hill) it's says that Hannah Hill was descended from Romany roots.

Try as I might I cannot make any connection with Chaplin's mother or Grandmother. One website suggests the connection is through his Great Grandmother.

Elsewhere another site goes as far to suggest that Esau might be Chaplin's Grandfather.

Has anyone delved into this? also I could do with an accurate list of Esau & Henty's Children/Grandchildren etc if anyone has such a list.

Thank you

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Offline NettieS

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Re: Esau & Henty Smith of the Black Patch & the Charlie Chaplin mystery
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 22 February 12 23:37 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Chaplin

Several family trees on the ancestry site suggest that Hannahs mother Mary Ann Terry was born about 1840 in Surrey. I have had a look on FindMyPast at the 1841 census and found that there are two Mary Terrys born in Surrey one in 1838 and she is with her parents George and Ester and sister Emma and Mary, William and John King and Lousa Avis. The other Mary Terry is born in 1839 and is with her mother Mary, three John Tournier's Mary and Frederick Tournier and interestlingly Esther Smith aged 10.

So Esther Smith maybe the one to research.

Regards
Lyne

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Lyne
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Offline pennysteve

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Re: Esau & Henty Smith of the Black Patch & the Charlie Chaplin mystery
« Reply #2 on: Monday 07 April 14 12:32 BST (UK) »
The story about Charlie Chapplin is not true, He was not born on the black patch.

Offline ROMANYGENES

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Re: Esau & Henty Smith of the Black Patch & the Charlie Chaplin mystery
« Reply #3 on: Monday 14 April 14 21:06 BST (UK) »
From online census and records so far I have found no connection to Romany in regards to Chaplin and i know his grandson has visited the University of Liverpool looking for any clues and in regard to making a  film? In his son's book he said it wasent true and that Chaplin him self used to use the gypsy story to enhance the mystery when he first started out in show buisness a bit like Yul Bryner and like wise his son said similar ?but who knows also like Elvis all searches have come up with no Romany connections as far as i can see?

Offline Bojalu

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Re: Esau & Henty Smith of the Black Patch & the Charlie Chaplin mystery
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 10 June 18 00:12 BST (UK) »
The story about Charlie Chapplin is not true, He was not born on the black patch.

Yet, members of  Charlies family visit Black Patch   for  unveiling of the memorial and the annual  Romany reunion.
Even MI5 could not find a birth certificate for Charlie.
The majority of  Romany's did not bother with birth certificates .

Offline ROMANYGENES

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Re: Esau & Henty Smith of the Black Patch & the Charlie Chaplin mystery
« Reply #5 on: Friday 26 October 18 21:23 BST (UK) »
Since the previous post a fellow researcher as well as a search in Newspaper reveals what is Charlie Chaplins Birth and explains why not found if they were "touring at the time with a show"
(Roy Stockdill-Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer)
 The record is just one paragraph at the very bottom of a long column and it
reads:"BIRTH. - April 15th, the wife of Charles Chaplin, nee Lily Harley, of a
beautiful boy. Mother and son both doing well."

There isn't the slightest doubt that this is a record of Chaplin's birth since
his father was Charles Chaplin senior and his mother Hannah was also on the
stage under the name of Lily Harley.

There are various versions of where Chaplin was born but most accounts give his
birth as 16 April 1889 at Walworth, Surrey. However, this cutting shows the
birth as being a day earlier. He appears with his mother Hannah in the 1891
census, which gives his birth place as Walworth

Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Esau & Henty Smith of the Black Patch & the Charlie Chaplin mystery
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 27 October 18 08:52 BST (UK) »
I remember having quick look at the Chaplin side a few years ago and I think some of the Chaplins in Suffolk were 'hawkers'. His Grandfather, Spencer Chaplin from Suffolk, married an Ellen Elizabeth Smith. His Grt Grandfather was a Shadrack Chaplin who married a Sophia Hancock. I think some of the Chaplin side were also from Staffordshire.
Just a random thought, but maybe any Romany connection was on the paternal side?

Offline whiteout7

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Re: Esau & Henty Smith of the Black Patch & the Charlie Chaplin mystery
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 27 October 18 12:50 BST (UK) »
Ellen Elizabeth Chaplin (nee Smith's) family look relatively unproven

Her father William Smith Born about 1807 in Felixstowe, Suffolk
Her mother Emily (Emma) Smith formerly Bristo
Born 10 Jan 1809 in Kirton, Suffolk, England, United Kingdom

Bristow(e) has been noted in this index "The Traveller Tinker Gypsy Surname Index of Great Britain"

Also if we look at Mary Ann Terry. The Terry surname is there too.

Also Jack Hill that wrote a letter to Chaplin claiming he knew Chaplin was born on the Black Patch. The Hill name appears as well

http://www.ausgenealogy.com/Avon/JJGypsyIndex.pdf

Makes you wonder ... all this Romany influence?



 

Wemyss/Crombie/Laing (West Wemyss)
Givens/Normand (Dysart)
Clark/Lister (Dysart)
Wilkinson/Simson (Kettle or Kettlehill)

Offline whiteout7

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Re: Esau & Henty Smith of the Black Patch & the Charlie Chaplin mystery
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 27 October 18 13:08 BST (UK) »
Was Emma Smith (nee Bristow) born to William Bristo(w) and Rebbeca Page?

This William Bristows parents were Jeremiah Bristo(w) and Margaret COOPER.

http://gayford.one-name.net/getperson.php?personID=I060&tree=T004

Maybe sallyyorks has a good theory, there could be quite a bit of Romany in Charlie Chaplins tree as well as other bloodlines - We all know women run the family though right?
Wemyss/Crombie/Laing (West Wemyss)
Givens/Normand (Dysart)
Clark/Lister (Dysart)
Wilkinson/Simson (Kettle or Kettlehill)