Author Topic: Help to find John WEBSTER's family in Scotland  (Read 4674 times)

Offline ols030

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Help to find John WEBSTER's family in Scotland
« on: Friday 04 May 12 04:56 BST (UK) »
Hi,
     apologies in advance for the long post.  I need help to establish whether a family I have identified belongs to my gr-gr grandfather, John Webster, who immigrated to South Africa in 1849 or if not, where I should be looking.  Basically, I would like to find his birth/baptism record.  I have searched on Scotland’s People, Family Search, Find my Past and Ancestry but cannot find a birth/baptism record anywhere in Scotland or England.

What I can substantiate -
On his death notice (died 20 Sept 1894, South Africa) it says that John Webster was born "near the city of Glasgow” in Apr 1817.   Family records say it was 12 Apr 1817. 

John’s father was James, an “engineer” who had died by 1839 (John’s marriage certificates/death notice).  John had at least 2 brothers, James and George (letters from George to John).  James jnr was born in about 1822-1823.  He was also an engineer but later worked in a sawmill.  He died in London on 20 March 1895 (death certificate/census).  George was born in Edinburgh in about 1822 and was in the 2nd European Light Infantry (army records).

John married Ann Elizabeth Whall on 7 Oct 1839 in Stepney, Middlesex, at the Queen Street Meeting Place for Protestant Dissenters (marriage certificate).

In 1841 census John was living in Wapping Wall, Shadwell, Middlesex with his wife, 1 child, brother James and Isabella Webster (his mother??).   John, James and Isabella were born in Scotland.

John and his wife, Ann were witnesses at brother James’ 1st marriage in Poplar, Middlesex, 1844.

In the 1851 census (John had emigrated by then) brother James and his 2nd wife are living in Stepney with their children and his blind mother, Isabel, born in Leith, Scotland.  James is recorded as being born in Edinburgh.  Isabella died in Middlesex in 1852 (death certificate).


I have identified a family from records on Scotland’s People, that I think is John’s but I have no direct proof/link -
Parents - James Webster, a carpenter/wright/joiner (not “engineer”??), and Isobel McLean, both of Fountain Bridge, Midlothian, were married in St Cuthberts, Midlothian, on 11 Sept 1815.  Her father was Daniel McLean.  (His father was John Webster.)  I found 2 children for this couple. James was born on 12 Sept 1821 and baptised in St Cuthberts, Midlothian.  George was born on 1 Jan 1825 and baptised in St Georges, Edinburgh.

This sort of ties in with what I know of the family (ages approximate??) but there is no sign of a son, John!  There is a gap between when the parents married, 1815 and the James’ birth in 1821.  John was supposedly born in 1817 so that could fit and there was possibly another son, Daniel named after her father, born in that gap too although I have no record of him.  I have actually looked through a copy of the register for St Cuthberts for 1817 but found no record that looked familiar. 

John Webster ran a bakery/coffee shop  in London.  He was a baker.  I found the details on the birth certificates of his children and also the PO directories.  I hired a researcher in London to try and found if John’s date and place of birth was recorded anywhere, possibly related to the shop or his emigration.  We had no luck at all so any help or advice on where to go from here will be much appreciated!
Karen.

Offline ianwebster89

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 2
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help to find John WEBSTER's family in Scotland
« Reply #1 on: Friday 07 April 17 10:36 BST (UK) »
Hi there,

Just found this post. I'm John Webster's gr gr gr grandson. Unfortunately I have no other details to aid your research but I'd be very interested in hearing what you've found in your extensive research.

I'm sure you've come across this or perhaps helped log this information:
http://www.1820settlers.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I88255&tree=master

Hope to hear from you!

Offline ols030

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help to find John WEBSTER's family in Scotland
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 08 April 17 02:18 BST (UK) »
Hello Ian!
              I had taken a long break from researching the family history after moving house.  I have just started getting back into it.  What I had written in that post is still where I am up to with the Webster family.  I have thought of hiring a researcher in Scotland but after talking to experienced researchers at our local genealogy society I feel that I should accept the evidence I have about his family.  I have looked again recently for a birth record for John Webster (1817-1894) or any record that would give more info but found nothing new.

From which line are you a descendant?  I am from the son James (1843-1917) and his son John George (1883-1959).  Most of the info on the 1820 settler site comes from Katherine Berger.  She has made an extensive tree of Webster descendants.  I am more focused on the family origins.

I have several docs for the family, mentioned in the post.  Are you interested in any of these?  I can send you copies. I also have a small booklet "History of Ann's Villa".  It is about John's family in South Africa, written by Helen Lunn.  I eventually got to visit Ann's Villa on a short trip to South Africa last year.  I now live in Australia.

Offline solidrock

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,058
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help to find John WEBSTER's family in Scotland
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 08 April 17 07:14 BST (UK) »
Found this on FamilySearch


JOHN /WEBSTER/

Sex
Male

Birth
12 April 1817 / 4 December 1817
GLASGOW, SCOTLAND

Death
20 September 1894
SHADWELL, S.E.

Birth
12 April 1817 / 4 December 1817
GLASGOW, SCOTLAND

Death
20 September 1894
SHADWELL, S.E.

Marriage
7 October 1839 / 10 July 1839
MORESFIELD, LONDON

Marriage
16 July 1866

Name    John Webster
Gender    Male
Christening Date    17 Jul 1817
Christening Place    MONIFIETH,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
Birth Date    12 Jul 1817
Father's Name    James Webster


Offline ianwebster89

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 2
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help to find John WEBSTER's family in Scotland
« Reply #4 on: Monday 10 April 17 11:07 BST (UK) »
Thanks for getting back to me, Karen. And it's nice to e-meet you :)

I'm from his son Alfred (1861-1900), and his son Wilfred, who's son, Desmond, is my grandfather (living in Ireland). I now live in London and frequently visit the area that John Webster lived in (Wapping). There's a great 15th century pub there called The Prospect of Whitby which is opposite where I believe John's house would have been on Wapping Wall.

Yes I'd love to see any documents you have. Feel free to get in touch and send them over to me via email (*).

Many thanks,
Ian

(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.


See Help-Page:  http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php

Online Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,972
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Re: Help to find John WEBSTER's family in Scotland
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 13 April 17 09:10 BST (UK) »
Found this on FamilySearch
JOHN /WEBSTER/
Birth
12 April 1817 / 4 December 1817
GLASGOW, SCOTLAND
Death
20 September 1894
SHADWELL, S.E.
Do not trust this. By all means use it as a finding aid, though it doesn't seem to tell you anything you didn't already know.

It's interesting because it means that someone else has been looking at your John Webster, but it is from the 'community contributed' section of the International Genealogical Index and not to be relied on until you have tracked down and viewed the original document to which it refers.

If he was born 'near the City of Glasgow', then he wasn't born in Monifieth, or vice versa, because Monifieth is not, by any stretch of the imagination, 'near the City of Glasgow'. It looks to me as if someone has assumed, because the Monifieth birth is the closest to 12 April 1817, that it is the same person. Such assumptions are not reliable, and this is an excellent example of why you must never trust anything you find online unless it is an image of an original document.

(In passing, it's also interesting that whoever indexed it apparently thought it necessary to specify that Glasgow is in Scotland, but not to state that Shadwell is in London, or even that it is in England! I think there are probably more people who know where Glasgow is than there are who know where Shadwell is, so why did the contributor do it this way?)

If I were you, I would look for George. Do his letters give any clue where he lived? If he married or died in Scotland, or in certain other parts of the British Empire (other than South Africa) then his marriage and death certificates should tell you the name of his mother.

FWIW it does look as if the family you have identified could be the right one, but if you can find George's marriage or death and that confirms his mother's name, that would clinch it.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline GeorgeWebsterZA

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 2
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help to find John WEBSTER's family in Scotland
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 23 January 19 14:29 GMT (UK) »
Hi Karen, Hi Ian,

My name is George Webster and I too am a descendant of John Webster. I've just started reseaching my ancestry and to find this thread was amazing.

John's son, George was my grandfather. He had my father George Wallace pretty late in life (around 73). Our line basically settled in South Africa in the 1800s as I'm sure you know Karen.

I'm not sure I have much to add at the moment but if I find anything I'll certainly let you guys know.

Online Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,972
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Re: Help to find John WEBSTER's family in Scotland
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 23 January 19 17:02 GMT (UK) »
Just had another look at this puzzle.

There was a John Webster baptised in Monifieth in 1817, parents James Webster and Graham. Unusually, the register of baptisms doesn't give the mother's full name.

The children are David, born 1811; James, 1813; Margaret, 1815; John, 1817; Jean, 1819, unnamed child, 1821; Andrew Dempster, 1823.

There is a marriage of James Webster to Graham Webster in Monifieth in 1810. So the inference is that Graham Webster was female (nothing particularly unusual about that - there are lots of names used now as male given names but which in the past were used for females).

There is a family in Broughty Ferry, parish of Monifieth in 1851 consisting of James Webster, 62, retired shipmaster; wife Grahame Webster, 58; daughter Margaret Webster, 29; and son A Dempster Webster, 26.

There is a stone in Broughty Ferry Old kirkyard saying that John Webster, son of James Webster, shipmaster, and his wife Graham Webster, died in Rio de Janeiro on 8 April 1850.

Also, you said that your John died in South Africa on 20 September 1894, and there is no death of a John Webster of the right age in Stepney in 1894 (Shadwell was in the registration district of Stepney).

That looks to me to be enough proof to eliminate the Broughty Ferry one from your enquiries, and to prove that whoever put that listing on FS was talking pie in the sky.

Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline GeorgeWebsterZA

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 2
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help to find John WEBSTER's family in Scotland
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 23 January 19 21:30 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

Thanks for digging a little further. I found that too. I've found a few saved family tree projects online relating to John Webster that list James Webster and Isabella Mclean as his parents but can't find the documentation to confirm it.

They were married at St. Cuthberts, Edinburgh in 1815 so I'm focussed on that clue for now.

Its quite a compelling mystery indeed.