Elizabeth Jenkins & John Herbert marriage and death mystery

[lazydaisy]

Can anyone help me find a marriage  & death dates for the above, who are my great great grandparents please?

This is what I know so far:

I have a birth cert for Elizabeth Herbert (my gret great Aunt) born 19 Aug 1861 in Pontlottyn to John Herbert and Elizabeth Herbert formerly Jenkins.

I have a birth cert for Martha Ann Herbert (my great great grandmother) born 20 March 1865 Heol Evan Wynne Pontlottyn to John Herbert and Elizabeth Herbert formerly Jenkins.

I cant find the parents on 1861 census or any prior to this date. Nor can I find a marriage for them.

In the 1871 census, I find Martha Ann Herbert aged 6 living with her mother at Union St Brithdir Gelligaer. Mother Elizabeth is described as wife, this is then crossed out and Head inserted. Her occupation is domestic wife age 45 and born in Pembrokeshire.

In the 1871 census, John Herbert is recorded as living at Deri Gelligaer with his daughter Elizabeth as a boarder in the Roberts household . John is described  married, occupation coal miner, born Bedwellty. daughter Elizabeth is 9 and is also a boarder in the Roberts household.

I can only find Martha Ann Herbert on the 1881 census. This time, she is living in Maesycwmur. She is 16 and is described as a niece to the head of the household Martha Evans* (age 46, born Pembrokeshire) whose son Joseph Symons (age 24 born Merthyr) also lives there. Martha Ann Herbert occupation is servant.
(*wondered if this Martha Evans was a sister of Elizabeth Jenkins but I have not found a connection)

In  March 1887, Martha Ann Herbert marries William Bevan. I have a copy of the marriage cert. Martha Ann Herbert is 23 and lives at Cwm Taf Fawr Vaynor. Her Father, John Herbert is recorded as deceased. The marriage is witness by Richard and Elizabeth Jones - I was wondering if this Elzabeth was Martha Ann Herberts sister but cant find an Elizabeth Herbert marrying a Richard Jones.

If anyone out there in RC land can help, I would be much obliged

Many thanks

Diane

[lazydaisy]

Just to clarify Martha Ann Herbert is my GREAT grandmother, not great great as stated above.

Sorry for any confusion caused
D

[Hazel17]

There is a John Herbert/Elizabeth Jenkins marriage in Merthyr T in 1867 (of course there is another groom and bride on the same page). I know it is after the girls were born but worth considering maybe.

Have you traced Martha Evans backwards to find out her maiden name? I haven't got any acccess to censuses at the moment so I can't really help you but I would think finding out how she was connected would be the best option.

Also what birth dates do you have for John and Elizabeth from the censuses?

[lazydaisy]

Hello Hazel17

Thanks for your reply and suggestions

According to the 1871 census Elizabeth (Jenkins) Herbert was 45 so this would put her date of birth around 1826. John Herbert was 50 so may have been born around 1821.

I have looked at Martha Evans previously. Will look up my notes as cant remember off the top of my head what I uncovered - but think that no connection was found with her and Elizabeth Jenkins. I will post again on this.

By the way. would the description 'niece' have a different meaning from now a days ? where we take it to mean the daughter of a sibling?

As John Herbert and Elizabeth Jenkins seemed to have children quite late on, it is not out of the question that they married after the children were born. I will order the cert.

I seem to remember finding a John Herbert & Elizabeth Jenkins marrying in the early 1850's and sent off for the cert. However although they appeared on the same page, they married different people. The GRO kindly pointed this out and didnt send the cert- so that saved £9.25.

Will now go and look up my notes and report back what I find about Martha Evans.

Thanks again

Diane

[Hazel17]

Even if you can't find a connection between Martha and Elizabeth, Martha could have been related to John or it could be that Martha's husband could have been related to Elizabeth or John. Niece had the same meaning so I would kepe persuing Martha as I suspect she is related somehpow. Keep an eye out for more unusual connections such as great aunt, cousins etc as well as niece - I can't see she would use the term niece if they weren't related at all.

[wilcoxon]

Possible  death

Deaths Sep 1875
HERBERT John  age 53   Merthyr T. 11a 207

Sub-districts : Aberdare, Gelligaer, Lower Merthyr Tydfil, Merthyr Tydfil, Upper Merthyr Tydfil.

[lazydaisy]

Hi Hazel

So, back to the 1881 census for Martha Ann Herbert listed as niece in Martha Evans Household.
 
Joseph Symons (son of Martha Evans) aged 24 born Merthyr.

I think I may have found him in the 1861 census.

Father George Symonds 32 years old, carpenter born Goodrich Herefordshire
Mother Martha Symonds 27 years old, born Trevena (?) Pembrokeshire
Joseph Symonds 4 years old born Merthyr

I looked for a marriage for George Symonds & found a possible with a Martha GRONOW in 1854 in Abergavenny.

I still cant link Martha  Gronow/Symonds/Evans with Elizabeth Jenkins
Presumably, George Symonds passed away - then  Martha Symonds married a Mr Evans.

I have tried all variations of spelling  of  the surname Symonds

Just been looking at another site & see that there is a tree that goes back as far as George Symonds so I will email the owner and compare notes.

Will let you know how I get on.

Thanks again

Diane

[lazydaisy]

Hi Wilcoxon

Yes, that entry interests me, I beleive a relation may have ordered the cert. I will contact and see if it sheds any light.

Thanks

Diane

[wilcoxon]

This doesn`t shed a lot of light, Martha seems to have knocked a bit off her age, but it is struck through so may be 36.
1871 Swansea
Martha Evans 30 head widow tailoress b St Davids Pembroke
Joseph Simmonds 14 son errand boy b Merthyr Glamorganshire
Thos C Jones 26 boarder
Mary Fisher 49 boarder