Author Topic: Expertese sought -tracking Yorkshire ancestor born pre 1710  (Read 14525 times)

Offline KLM

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Re: Expertese sought -tracking Yorkshire ancestor born pre 1710
« Reply #72 on: Tuesday 12 March 13 13:58 GMT (UK) »
Fairly recently other relevant records have been added to both Ancestry and Find my Past programmes ,both of which can often be accessed via public libraries.
Malone...Cheshire & Lancashire.Boswell...Bucks and Hunts.Lister...Yorkshire and Lancashire.

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Offline hanleyp

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Re: Expertese sought -tracking Yorkshire ancestor born pre 1710
« Reply #73 on: Tuesday 04 August 15 15:02 BST (UK) »
It is now July 2015 - and over 3 years since I raised the quest for the birthplace of Thomas Hanley who married in Sutton upon Derwent in 1728--but from a cause paper in Dec 1729 I know not to be born there.
In that cause paper his age is given as 25 around .
The vast majority of Hanleys I found were in WRY -in-between those parishes from Leeds to Doncaster -with a large group in South Kirkby . Some Hanleys existed In NRY - Masham and Ripon(Kirkby Malzeard)  area--whilst relatively only a odd few in NRY.

Given that most Agricultural labourers relocated short distances ( 50% under 10 miles) I had hoped to pick up Hanleys in parishes next to Sutton upon Derwent . In the adjacent parish of Thornton in Pocklington found a couple of Hanleys in 1630s -but could find no traces of them  or descendants afterwards
 
After searching most parishes in the 3 Yorkshire ridings I resigned myself to it being a lost cause .
In the last month however I found on "Find my past" -the Bishops transcripts for year 1704 -one Thomas Hanley born Jan 21st 1704 Driffield ERY .
In todays calendar this would have been Jan 21st 1705. Ok- if the same person Thomas of Sutton would only have been 24 in Dec1729 -but would  only be 6 weeks away from being 25. Since the term 25 "about" is written on the cause paper I think it well likely that his age would have been put as 25.

This is the closest- by far-of a Thomas Hanley I have come across to been born anywhere near Sutton in 1703/4/5.
Strangely enough in one earlier post reply I had raised that many parish records including ERY were still not on-line and gave Driffield as an example
I cannot  locate Driffield bishop transcripts or parish bmd records  of around that time-and other surrounding parishes, on any other site  (than Findmypast).

Driffield is 22 miles from Sutton -so a reasonable distance for an agricultural labourer to resettle-( (90% travelled less than 30miles ) -a fair bit  closer  than some of the WRY parishes that I had thought most likely before.
 
No sign so far of a marriage or death of Thomas in Driffield -will look at adjacent parishes .
Nothing is likely to prove Thomas born Driffield  is Thomas married Sutton upon Derwent--but at least a stronger connection than anything previous-especially if no sign of him abt Driffield .
 
Philip Hanley 

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Offline Redroger

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Re: Expertese sought -tracking Yorkshire ancestor born pre 1710
« Reply #74 on: Wednesday 05 August 15 20:49 BST (UK) »
Only 3 years? I found what I think was the baptism of my 2XGGf in 1997! Still not been able to prove it or who his father was for certain. I know there are other people on this site who have had even longer waiting times, so please be patient. It could be tomorrow, or in 20 years, or never.
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Offline hanleyp

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Re: Expertese sought -tracking Yorkshire ancestor born pre 1710
« Reply #75 on: Friday 07 August 15 02:08 BST (UK) »
Thanks Redroger --nice to hear from you again.

Perhaps an incomplete choice of words --Should have said ---lost cause "at this point of time"

The main reason I added my latest finding -several years after my query was raised - was to help people in similar searches. Roots has provided me a valuable platform in my research -- allowing  me to hear for people with good advice like yourself . So , I looked to return that service -in the hope it might help others .

First off--my situation would be fairly  common. Most people -outside of London - around 1700 -would be agricultural labourers -and I would think quite a few would move parishes seeking employment -I guess at the age of 21 when their apprenticeship ended . This break between parishes proves a major problem in ancestry research. Around 1700 with the enclosure of common land I think we at the point where the lot of the Agricultural labourers started to become harder -and security and conditions worsened . Relocation would start to become more common .

Most labourers did indeed move to adjacent / very close parishes -- but the  majority (70%)  of movement  limited to under 30 miles. A distance of 30 miles in Yorkshire however covers a hundred or more parishes .

I  would think that people who relocated long distance - 100miles- were likely to be trades or servants closely  attached to rich people (who had number of residences throughout the land ie not AL. )

So the question is what records are available to capture where the individual relocated from ?--since marriage and death records did not capture this  -nor the parents place of birth --at that time.
One possibility is the Dades records  ( last 20 years of 18th century and first 10 of the 19th) which capture sometimes grandparents and sometimes their parishes. However this would only cover grandfathers parish of living -not place of birth.

Settlement certificates would seem to be the obvious record --being an agreement between parishes of who accepted responsibility of looking after the person if he could not support himself .( parishes before the workhouses being the responsible for welfare of paupers/ill infirmed ). Have not come across these --and I don't know how common the practice was.

Initially I was under the impression that settlement arrangements took place  at the time of relocation between the two parishes .ie if he becomes a burden we can send him back. In that case Thomas would have had some settlement agreement . In now appears the settlement undertaking only occurred if an individual became a burden--and usually if he had only been in the parish a short time  . In that case Thomas would not have a settlement paper to his name .
The causes papers ( Church hearings - like a court case-for things such as poaching, stealing, slander) can perhaps assist. I found two for Thomas --but neither gave his parish of birth . The first however did capture that he was not born in Sutton upon Derwent -arriving at age 21 and being 25 about -in Dec 1729 - a pretty key finding in my search

Wills -I would think -unlikely as agricultural labourers had nothing .

Another significant point I noted was that not all parish records are yet on line. Some records are on some sites . Even large ancestry sites have lots of missing parish records pre 1800

Around 1700 we are reaching the time when some parish records are incomplete -some parishes go back complete and well documented another 100 plus years but if ancestors left the parish this does not help.

Bishops transcripts ( annual summary of bmds sent to the bishop] seems to help for some missing years -but only show details captured on the parish records -which is  not place of birth on  marriages or deaths if not of the parish 

Marriage records do capture the parish of groom and bride -but if the person relocated parish ( from place of birth) before the marriage it is only the parish of residence that is  captured.

It seems to me that most agricultural labours married around 23-26 --certainly not at 21 . So in my case Thomas moved parishes at 21[I suspect the norm ], and married at 24 . His marriage record simply states "of this parish" [ Sutton upon Derwent]

So where does that leave me. Only to find a birth of someone possible and see if he/she can be ruled out by a marriage or death record leaving who is left as possible -but never proven .

In my case I have one -Thomas Hanley born Driffield 21st Jan 1704 ( 1705 in todays calendar)

Or perhaps find a settlement paper --or some obscure document --or trace his siblings to see if that adds to probability . 

See what I can find about him .
Regards Phil Hanley

Offline Redroger

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Re: Expertese sought -tracking Yorkshire ancestor born pre 1710
« Reply #76 on: Sunday 09 August 15 18:52 BST (UK) »
Try a trawl of the archives in East Yorkshire, and also check out zany FH Societies in the area, I would try both sides of the river, you never know.
Ayres Brignell Cornwell Harvey Shipp  Stimpson Stubbings (all Cambs) Baumber Baxter Burton Ethards Proctor Stanton (all Lincs) Luffman (all counties)

Offline hanleyp

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Re: Expertese sought -tracking Yorkshire ancestor born pre 1710
« Reply #77 on: Saturday 22 August 15 04:13 BST (UK) »
Thanks Redroger ,
Up to now I was of the opinion that Thomas most likely came to Sutton upon Derwent ( in EY) from the WR -from one of the parishes between Leeds  and Doncaster. This was simply based on the observation that the vast majority of Hanleys to be found were from that area .

The other possibility -I now realise I should have considered - is that most of the early parish records of the ERY were not as yet on any web site --and that there were more Hanleys in EY yet to be uncovered .

 I am now finding out that the a lot of early parish records held by the EYRO in Beverley are still not to be found on any on-line site .Some BTs for these areas are on FindMyPast --but BTs do not cover the parish records years by a long way .
 
I have discovered Hanley's from 1600 to 1700 is four basic areas of ERY --Pocklington , Driffield, Hull and Beverley . Whilst these are not in large numbers they cant have just disappeared .

So I am now revising my opinion that Thomas may well have been born in ERY --nearer to Sutton on Derwent ---my original starting point .

Whilst I have managed to eliminate most of the Pocklington and adjacent parishes ( through Borthwick-plus this areas does seem more on line)  the only three areas are still almost largely missing from on line site ( Ancestry, IGI, FindMyPast) .

As mentioned I have found ( through FindMyPast BTs) one Thomas Hanley born 21st 1705 in Driffield who does fit -time and name. Driffield is 22 miles from Sutton upon Derwent - and this is a typically average distance for an unmarried single agricultural labourer to move .

Whilst all Roots advice received to this query is not to rule out long relocation distances I am conscious of how short distances my ancestors moved until the railways came along.

I have asked EYRO to see if they can find a marriage or death of a Thomas Hanley -in Driffield or the adjacent parishes . This may rule him out .

Apart from that I can only think to wait a few more years in the hope that more EY parish records are brought onto on -line sites. (If I lived in England I would visit Beverley and trawl through their records)  . I have made enquires to some of the ancestry sites --but have been unable to obtain any clarification of when this might occur .

Regards Phil Hanley   

Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Expertese sought -tracking Yorkshire ancestor born pre 1710
« Reply #78 on: Sunday 30 August 15 13:06 BST (UK) »
.. Most people -outside of London - around 1700 -would be agricultural labourers -and I would think quite a few would move parishes seeking employment -I guess at the age of 21 when their apprenticeship ended...



I am not sure most agricultural labourers would have taken any kind  of official apprenticeship. It was mostly unskilled work.

http://www.cambridgeshirehistory.com/People/agriculturallabourers.html
England
Tustin,Belcher,Brewerton,Deakin,Lawton,Grouts,Newey,Ingleson,Metcalf,Barton,Woods,Jenkinson,Hardisty,Betts,Benson,Jolly,Courtner
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Smith,Edwards
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Gardner

Offline hanleyp

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Re: Expertese sought -tracking Yorkshire ancestor born pre 1710
« Reply #79 on: Wednesday 09 September 15 02:46 BST (UK) »
Thanks Sally ,

Yes --bad choice of word (apprenticeship) . Really did not think anything formal existed --and I did recognise that children would work on the farm from an early age.

Have not ever come across details of what age AG labourers were allowed to move on . In Thomas's case he seems to have moved when 21. I looked at this as perhaps a  formal age of acceptance of when things may have been allowed .

 I kind of thought AG labourers born and raised in a parish might have some loose commitment to be kept on until that age --or alternatively other parishes would be generally unhappy to permit people under 21 to come and work in their parish. Presumably they had to be some sort of control -with age a significant factor

I came this ----"In 1754, Hardwicke's Marriage Act, decreed that parties under the age of 21 (minors) required the consent of parents or guardians to marry. " 

That advises that pre 1754 people under 21 were considered minors--so 21 does seem to have some significance.

I am also struck by the average marriage age in the 18th century -23 for woman and 26 for men . That seems to me to imply some informal/formal opposition to marrying young  -by society/parish/church ? 

One would expect to see early marriage discouraged at the time . --again nothing to be found on this .

Regards Phil Hanley

Offline sstarr2008

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Re: Expertese sought -tracking Yorkshire ancestor born pre 1710
« Reply #80 on: Friday 11 September 15 20:47 BST (UK) »
There is an old book on Google books which may be of interest, the memoirs of William Hirst who went from being poor to owning a woollen mill. The first few pages show just how much he travelled about in his youth. His story may be exceptional but it does show that movement was possible, even for the poorest.

The book is on Google at : http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g3q/

Stu
Starkey, Beaumont, Dunstan, Hogan, Nichol, Nichols, Laycock, Norbron, North, Smith, Connolly, Archer, Copley, Brook, Walker, Stocks, Berry, Swinden, Ambler.