Author Topic: Emma Pascoe from Breage  (Read 7496 times)

Offline djpegg

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Emma Pascoe from Breage
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 30 October 12 16:25 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Mabel. Unfortunately, I don't understand what you mean by accessing the "image"  of Emma Watters. I accessed the 1911 censuses on Ancestry.com. By the way, Emma Pascoe was rumoured  to be a "Bal Maiden" sometime in her life. Not surprising really, since her father was a miner. Her nickname was "Bobo". David

Offline JaneyCanuck

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,031
  • The Famous Five take tea on Parliament Hill
    • View Profile
Re: Emma Pascoe from Breage
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 30 October 12 22:05 GMT (UK) »
Ha - not a mistake in the census, just more bumbling idiocy by Ancestry.

djpegg, you have to look at the image, not the transcription. There is a link on the record page to do that.

I was going to suggest doing the free search here instead:
http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx
by searching for given name Emma living in Helston with Burt Watters, but unbelievably, her surname is mistranscribed (albeit differently) there too!

There's only one remotely matching death in Helston district: Emma E Pascoe in 1930, with an approx year of birth of 1849, which is pretty far out.



Just an aside -- I've recently been dabbling in genetic genealogy, and hoping to find a match for my Cornwall family in a project that has gazillions of members with the same common surname, almost all in the US, of course. But I theorized that given the propensity of the Cornish to emigrate ("a mine is a hole anywhere in the world with a Cornishman at the bottom of it"), there was a good chance of a match there. Well, I got a match in the US, but the surname isn't the same -- but the pedigree goes back to the same location in Cornwall, and the migration trajectory went from there to the copper mining region of Michigan!
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline djpegg

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Emma Pascoe from Breage
« Reply #11 on: Monday 05 November 12 22:25 GMT (UK) »
First I would like to apologize to all of you. I have been assuming Emma Pascoe's maiden name was the same as her married name. Last week my sister found an oll scrap of paper indicating that Emma's maiden name was Meager. I was able to find a record of her birth in 1853 in Breage and her death in 1950 in Ashton/Breage. These were registration records from nearby Helston. I was unable, however, to find a baptism record for her birth in the Breage parish record. This is Church of England so I suspect the family might have been Methodists. Any idea how I could access non-conformist records?
I found her parents listed on Family Tree. They are John Meager and Elizabeth (?). Again, I couldn't find John's baptism record. The census records indicate he was born in Breage in c1825. The 1871 census shows Emma in the family headed by John and Elizabeth. There were quite a few Meagers (Magor, Meagor) in Breage at this time. A John appears in the 1841 census in two households. In one the father was Richard Meager and in the other Sidney Meager. Without parish records it is hard to tell which family John belonged to. Both Richard and Sidney appear to have been born in Breage around 1790. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Again, sorry for leading you up the wrong path earlier. Regards David

Offline JaneyCanuck

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,031
  • The Famous Five take tea on Parliament Hill
    • View Profile
Re: Emma Pascoe from Breage
« Reply #12 on: Monday 05 November 12 23:04 GMT (UK) »
Just to be absolutely clear -- all of the preceding proceedings about the Pascoe family that travelled to the US are completely irrelevant to the Emma you are interested in?

These things happen. Just want to be clear.

I thought you had a marriage for her as Pascoe to Pascoe ... "She married a widower in Helston in 1873. He was 28 and she was only 15-17, depending on her birth date, 1856-1858"; "She re-appeared again in Cornwall when she married a William Pascoe (same surname) in Helston in 1873."

I guess one ought to have checked that info. There's no such Pascoe-Pascoe marriage. The Emma Pascoe marriage in Helston in 1873 was to either Peter Eustace/Eustice or John Eudey. Where on earth did the Emma Pascoe + William Pascoe 1873 marriage notion come from??

Is the Emma in the 1911 household with the Watters family the one you are actually interested in?
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?


Offline JaneyCanuck

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,031
  • The Famous Five take tea on Parliament Hill
    • View Profile
Re: Emma Pascoe from Breage
« Reply #13 on: Monday 05 November 12 23:06 GMT (UK) »
Marriage September quarter 1877, Helston

Emma Meager + William Pascoe

(Conveniently, the two grooms on that page are both named William Pascoe.)

That marriage certificate will give you her age and father's name.

*If* you are certain this is the person you are interested in, then you have got to start with that marriage certificate. Otherwise, you risk just following another red herring.

What is this "Family Tree" where you found her parents' names?

If this a tree someone has posted on line, then it would be a good idea to approach the tree owner and ask whether they would share their documentation for that info.

Actually, it would probably be best to start with the birth certificate of one of her children whose identity and birth details you are certain of. That will give you her birth surname for a certainty. Otherwise, again, you risk following a false trail.

That is the golden rule: always start from what you know and work backwards. Your query is unfortunately an excellent case in point of the risks of doing otherwise!

(edited to fix typo)
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline djpegg

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Emma Pascoe from Breage
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 06 November 12 13:24 GMT (UK) »
Janey: Once again I apologize for my mistake in misidentifying the maiden name of Emma Pascoe. I thought it was my duty to let people know of the correction. After all, this is a forum and the information might be of interest in future searches. I was, however, quite surprised at the rather unforgiving reaction. Maybe i should have just ignored the fact. It was an honest mistake. There are many Pascoes in the Breage area and two Emmas in Breage at the about the same time. What changed my mind was the identification of Emma Pascoe (thanks to people on this forum) in the recently published 1911 census. My sister then remembered someone living in the same household in Ashton (now deceased) giving her a note with Emma's maiden name of Meager on it. Anyway, I still would appreciate anyone telling me if it is possible to access non-conformist (Methodist, in this case) parish records. The registration in Helston (covering Breage) give information on the BMD of Emma Pascoe (nee Meager) but the Breage parish record (C of E) doesn't mention the family.  There is also the same BMD info from Family Search. I have seen a marriage between Emma's parents, John Meager and Elizabeth in 1849 which fits well with the birth of their first child, John, in 1850. Emma came 3 years later. I don't know the maiden name of Elizabeth (it could be Johns?) I have two candidates for the grandparents. Richard and Elizabeth/ Sidney and Grace. Richard and Elizabeth were married in 1821. Richard and Sidney were born about the same time (c1790) and both had a son called John, born c 1825. As you suggested, I should try to get hold of the 1849 marriage certificate of John and Elizabeth. Can this be obtained in the records office in Truro or Helston? I am now living in the US but my sister still lives in Cornwall. Thanks again. David

Offline JaneyCanuck

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,031
  • The Famous Five take tea on Parliament Hill
    • View Profile
Re: Emma Pascoe from Breage
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 06 November 12 14:46 GMT (UK) »
David -- I did say "These things happen. Just want to be clear"! And yes, certainly you corrected the misinformation (which you kind of needed to if you wanted more information/help!), and true, somebody might google some day and find this thread with info about *their* Pascoes. ;) (And yes, that certainly does happen.) Slightly put out, yes, but hardly unforgiving! And I still don't understand where the info about the non-existent 1873 marriage came from.

Our fault too for not checking that info straight off, which could have raised the right questions earlier. It sounded, to me at least, like you actually *knew* things like the family's emigration to the US and so on.

Note that I didn't suggest getting the 1849 marriage certificate -- I said you need Emma's own marriage certificate to be sure of her father's name and her age. But I qualified that by saying that you really need a birth certificate for one of her children to be absolutely sure of her birth surname and her husband's name.

It helps us to know your connection with the person you are researching. If you are descended from one of her children, and that line is known for sure (the child's marriage, that child's child and his/her marriage ...), then we have a better idea of what to advise. If that is the case, and you don't have the birth certificate of the child of Emma you descend from, that really is where you need to start.

The info about Emma's birth surname sounds reliable (since it matches up with census and birth records for someone by that name), but you need confirmation in the form of certificates, and the birth certificate of a known child is where to start. (Sometimes parish baptism records can serve the purpose, but they will seldom give the mother's full name, and they don't seem to be available here for anything to do with Emma herself.)

Assumptions are never a good place to start. For instance, we don't even know that John Meager married Elizabeth Pollard in 1849; he could have married Sarah Goldsworthy, Rosina Johns or Mary Thomas. ;) This is from a search at FreeBMD which is always the best starting point:
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
Search for a marriage between John Meager and Elizabeth, then click on the page number of the result to see the list of brides and grooms on the page -- before 1911, the GRO index doesn't say who on the page married whom, and that particular page has four brides and four grooms. Searching later censuses for couples can indicate who married whom, but only the certificate will say for sure.

Without Emma's birth certificate, you can't be sure that she wasn't really a niece of John Meager whom the couple took in and reared as their own, just for instance. (In a case like that, the person might well have then named the 'adoptive' father as their father on their marriage certificate, so the marriage certificate alone isn't strictly adequate.)

Once you have
- a birth certificate for Emma's child showing Emma's birth surname and her husband's name
- Emma's marriage certificate showing her age and father's name
- Emma's birth certificate showing her mother's full name

then you can go back to her parents' marriage and beyond.

Yes, it's a bit of an expensive business, but it's what we all need to do to be sure we're on the right track.

There are some non-conformist baptisms at the Cornwall OPC site:
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/baptisms-non-conformist/
but none for children of John Meager.

Hm, I'm still not sure where you're getting the parents' names from. The only thing I see at FamilySearch is the census record showing an Emma Meager with parents John and Rosina ... who would be the Rosina Johns in the list of brides in 1849 ... who also have son John, two years older than Emma ... This baptism for Rosina Adelaide Johns, 1831 Helston, daughter of Samuel and Sarah (probably Sarah Petherick, married 1828 Helston), fits Rosina Johns, but again, you would need the marriage certificate to be sure of her age and father's name (after confirming Emma's parents' names as outlined above):
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=1746507

It really would be best if you told us where the info you are relying on has come from, since I, at least, can't seem to replicate any of it.


edit to add: I'm in Canada so I'm not familiar with the process of getting certificates from local register offices. It's easy and convenient to order them by mail here:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
It takes a good couple of weeks to get the certificates that way, of course. Also, never ever order from third parties (like Ancestry), as you will pay double the cost for no added value.
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline JaneyCanuck

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,031
  • The Famous Five take tea on Parliament Hill
    • View Profile
Re: Emma Pascoe from Breage
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 06 November 12 15:11 GMT (UK) »


And another note: as you saw in 1911, it's always good to look at the original census images. In 1871, for instance, the John and Rosina Meager household is surrounded by other Meagers on a couple of pages: preceded by Richard and Honor Meager, 48 and 45, and Elizabeth Meager, 65, and unmarried daughter Elizabeth, 48, and followed by William Meager, 35. One might suspect these were John's mother and siblings.

The 1841 census has John Meager aged 13 living in Breage with parents Richard and Elizabeth and siblings who include Richard and Elizabeth, as above, although no William.

However, if you search for Meager baptisms in Breage with mother Elizabeth:
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/baptisms/
none of them appears, suggesting again that they were non-conformist.

HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline Richard1962

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 2
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Emma Pascoe from Breage
« Reply #17 on: Monday 03 April 17 22:01 BST (UK) »
My father remembers meeting a very elderly lady at the farm in Ashton when he visit his great uncle Burt Watters in the late 1940s. This might have been Emma