Author Topic: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup  (Read 19946 times)

Offline Valda

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Re: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 15 September 12 22:51 BST (UK) »
11 September 05

Good heavens I have come on line with a pen and a pencil ready to fight and tussle with Samuel numbers 1 to 8 and to follow your workings to see if I could work out which one was "my" one. And it would appear that you have both been tussling yourself this weekend and the emerging consensus is that Samuel is candidate number 5, husband of Elizabeth and father of Ruth, Margaret, Ann, and possibly Zillah, William, Mary Martha, Joshua and Ellen. This being the case he left the family home after 1873 when Ellen was born and ultimately went off to live in Eccleshill where he took up with Eliza, and had a further child John Wilson Benn in 1881 at the time of the census. This relationship was short lived as Eliza married John Long in late 1884.He then moved to Windhill in time for the 1891 census where he is a lodger living alone and where he died in September of pernicious anaemia. It is rather hard for me to think of him leaving 9 children but perhaps he went off where the work was and perhaps he and Eliza, herself having been recently widowed and with two small children, found themselves living in shared accommodation where the inevitable happened. Maybe that is why they were recorded as Master and wife instead of Head and wife because they were lodgers together in some way. And maybe it was only when John Wilson Benn was born that Elizabeth severed her relationship with Samuel, perhaps she didn't know he was doing anything other than looking for work when he went - I cant think she ever had him back because he died a lodger and his landlady registered the death, not his wife. He was unemployed in 1881 on the census, still looking for work or had a job and lost it? My family are rather unsalubrious I feel. This scenario if correct brings me to a closer understanding of how it was that my great grandfather was sent away as a baby and brought up elsewhere, never to know his birth family. I have to think it was because of the scandal and the poverty of being a single mother with a child whose father was in no position to recognise him and who she may not even have cared for very much. So he went off to live with persons unknown to me but who were presumably close enough to Eliza to witness her marriage to John Long. I am going to read it all through and make notes anyway so that I can follow all your twists and turns and then perhaps it is time to make a decision! Thank you for spending such a long time and so much effort on someone else's family, I do hope though that you have enjoyed the thrill of the chase!

Best wishes Louise
PS I will order any birth certificates you suggest - Ellen the youngest? her marriage to Thomas Henry Wood?


11 September 05

And in answer to my very first queries Eliza Lister was born in 1856, daughter of JDL and Elizabeth (Betty) Widdup. Betty Widdup's father is John Widdup and he comes from what looks to me like a reasonably clear line going back a few generations in Kildwick. We don’t know why, where or exactly when Betty was born in Scotland but I may have to live with that. Eliza now has lots of brothers and sisters and I know about some of their own families now too. So she is pretty much sorted out. John Wilson Benn's attestation papers may make mention of the family that cared for him, or have a home address that might help with where he was in 1891. It occurs to me that he may have had a different surname until he enlisted when perhaps he found out his own father's name. So he might be hiding on the census and I might be able to find him after I have seen his army records. I am delighted at these major breakthroughs and truly thank you for your hard work.

Louise
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Offline Valda

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Re: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 15 September 12 22:51 BST (UK) »
11 September 05

Just to tidy up Elizabeth. I think this is probably her. From FreeBMD Benn, Elizabeth Record Type  Deaths Age at death  69 Quarter  June Year  1901 District  Bradford County  West Riding of Yorkshire Volume  9b Page  97 Very convenient just holding out for the 1901 census like that. Her death certificate might say widow of Samuel but then again it might not. The hypothsis once JAP has combed through it, only gives you a candidate for your Samuel, it doesn't prove it is him, though what it does also prove is that all the others found so far aren't him, which again helps to make it more likely that he is the one. I can't think of any record left other than a maintenance claim for John Wilson Benn in the quarter sessions that would help you prove that it is him. I suppose you could check Samuel's burial, which I would expect to be in the nearest cemetery in a common grave, but just in case a member of his family buried him in a family plot (not necessarily his direct family) it might be worth searching for. You could check poor law records to see if through illness he passed through the system at anytime after the 1871 census. The symptoms for pernicious anaemia are breathlessness, tiredness, dizziness, rapid weak pulse rate, palpitations – irregular or strong heartbeats, headaches, pale skin As well as the symptoms of anaemia, vitamin B12 deficiency may cause neurological symptoms such as inflammation of the nerves (neuritis) which can affect movement and sensation, tinnitus (ringing in the ears), colour blindness, lightheadedness, confusion, depression, poor concentration and forgetfulness. There may also be loss of appetite, diarrhoea and weight loss. Any of which over the years could have increasingly brought Samuel in contact with the workhouse infirmary. You also still have why John Benn had the middle name of Wilson (or was it William and he changed it to Wilson?) to explain just in case it might prove helpful. Plus as an aside and just because he represents a loose end, no proof that Thomas Vipond actually died but didn't leave the marriage fairly soon after Ellen's birth in 1873 if not before - Eliza was very young to be married and it might have been the equivalent of a shotgun affair (December 1872 quarter marriage, birth June quarter 1873).Finally does Doughty in the child Walter Vipond's middle name, while we are in middle names - the child with no father named on his birth certificate in 1879 - quite a gap 1873 to 1879 for Thomas Vipond to have lingered, give some indication of his parentage. In which case does this make the use of Wilson significant in anyway for Samuel or is it just a more common name use in Yorkshire to use Wilson as a Christian name? It is possible that John Wilson Benn was in the family home in 1891 but missed off the census, or he was staying somewhere else that night and missed off the census there because it was presumed he would be counted at home. I don't think you actually have any proof other than he is missing from the 1891 census and his refusal to talk about his childhood to state that he had left home by 1891 or earlier. His step father may have been more than happy to exclude him from the information he gave to the enumerator. There is one John Benn born Bradford circa 1881 who is a boarder on the 1901 census and doesn't appear on the 1891 census (but then that might be the usual change of birthplace common in West Yorkshire to any one called Benn)!!

Regards
Valda
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Offline Valda

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Re: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 15 September 12 22:52 BST (UK) »
11 September 05
 
Valda, thanks for Elizabeth's death record and the description of Samuel's illness. A couple of thoughts before bedtime Re Thomas' death - when Eliza married John Long in 1884 they were both described as widowed. One has to hope he did die, otherwise she was a bigamist on top of everything else! I will have a look for his death certificate. He was a slater so I always imagined that he fell off a roof. Re John Wilson Benn's middle name. I can ask for the certificate again, this time as a photocopy rather than a recreation although am loathe to pay twice for the same thing. Perhaps if I sent a copy of the certificate to Bradford Superintendent Registrar and asked them to check it, they could tell me if it said Wilson or William. I fancy it was Wilson if only because they all had middle names that were surnames and also because Eliza had a Wilson witness at her wedding to John Long. I have already wandered round the graveyard in Windhill to no avail I am afraid. I was hoping that Eliza's family history would contain a Doughty but we have not found one so far. As to where my GGrandfather John Wilson Benn was in 1891, I can only reiterate the family story that he was a foundling brought up by a family close to the Hiltons whose daughter he married and we know they lived in Scarborough. I had an abortive attempt at finding them in another link on the North Riding pages a few months ago. I cannot believe that he was still at home at age 10 yet still happy to call himself a foundling. I should also tell you that I have been in contact with the grandson of Ellen Vipond his older sister and they had never heard of John Wilson Benn, because Ellen never mentioned him to them. Anyway, if Ellen never mentioned him, even in passing, then I don’t see how he was still around when she was 18 - which she would have been in 1891.I accept that I have no proof, but still believe he is going to turn up in Scarborough in the end. The poor law records sound like a great option, where would I look for them?

Best wishes and goodnight
Louise
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Offline Valda

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Re: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 15 September 12 22:54 BST (UK) »
12 September 05

Hi Louise, I'll think about Valda's great discoveries and thoughts about Samuel/Benjamin later but I've been back to the beginning and your reference to the thread re WILSONs and HILTONs of Scarborough at
http//www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,69234.0.html
But before moving on to that, I was thinking about Thomas Doughty VIPOND. As no father was named on his birth cert, it suggests (though of course does not prove) that (a) Thomas VIPOND was not his father, and (b) Thomas VIPOND was dead (I thought that a living husband was automatically assumed to be the father). I suppose you have been through the full index (not just FreeBMD) for appropriate deaths for Thomas? Incidentally, are Ellen's descendants aware of Thomas Doughty )It also occurs to me that the death certificate of Thomas Doughty VIPOND in the Mar qtr 1882 might be of interest (of course it might not!) - who was the informant, what was the address. Also his burial. It has crossed my mind that perhaps the boot was on the other foot i.e. Eliza did not tire of Samuel but vice versa, he rejected her, and she had no choice but to give up baby John in order to survive. Or even if he did not, remember that Samuel BENN was unemployed in 1881 - and perhaps already unwell. And yes, definitely a good idea to follow up on John's birth cert to see whether it actually said Wilson rather than William. Back to the WILSON/HILTON connexion. Perhaps following it up may help the whole search? On the other thread, you said that family folklore was that John Wilson/William BENN, as a baby, had been taken in by a WILSON family and that John had grown up as a WILSON but had come to believe by the time of his marriage that he was a BENN, son of Samuel - his name being given as John Wilson BENN and father as Samuel BENN deceased. The marriage was in 1903 in Scarborough to Daisy Kate HILTON John was a soldier with the Northumberland Fusiliers and was resident in Lotts Yard, Scarborough (might be worth a look at who was living in Lotts Yard in 1901- drawing a long bow, I know!).Their children were named Wilson BENN. Another version of the folklore was that John changed his middle name to Wilson in recognition of the parent(s) who had brought him up. You said that family folklore was that the WILSON family had connexions with the HILTON family that John eventually married into in 1903 and an Ethel WILSON aged 1 was with the HILTON family in Throxenbury Barracks, Scarborough in 1891 - Ethel May WILSON was the daughter of Charles WILSON, a soldier at nearby Throxenbury Barracks, and wife Annie FLYNN. This might or might not be the relevant WILSON family (it's not an uncommon name). A family of a Charles WILSON, wife Annie has been found in 1891 (no John with them) but this Charles is a publican (might have left the army after Ethel's birth). You also said that the witnesses at Eliza's 1884 marriage to John LONG were ladies named HILTON (initial possibly R/N/A) and E WILSON (how did you know they were females). Perhaps they can be traced. Also, in 1891, at 105 Church St, Manningham (part of the Bradford registration district) there was a Nellie WILSON head wid 48 silk weaver b.Kirkheaton with a son Jno  Wm 10 b.Bradford and boarder Nellie SENTONE 20 b Lincolnshire. Nellie had been at the same address in 1881 with 38yo husband Robert, a 13yo son Tiras (Thomas?) and Robert's mother Jane 65 b Idle. Could Nellie WILSON (Nellie often a pet name for Ellen) be the E WILSON of Eliza's 1884 marriage certificate? There's a possible Bradford death for Robert on FreeBMD - Robert Rawnsley WILSON, 45, Jun qtr 1888. Jno  Wm was not in the 1881 census with them - of course he might have been born after the date of the census. Have you found the birth of a possible John William WILSON to Robert and Nellie? Do you have Nellie in 1901?Let's hope John's army papers can be found and are helpful. Not to mention any Poor Law papers relating to Samuel or to Eliza.

JAP

Here's a fascinating snippet. There are only 7 HILTONs in Bradford in 1881. And one is Ann HILTON  Might be no connexion (just sheer coincidence) but fascinating.
RG11/4446, Folio 12, Page 18
GAUKROGER Abraham, Head, 43, Dyer, b Sowerby Bridge Do
Eliza Ann, Wife, 50, Housekeeper, b do
HILTON Ann Step Daur, 22, Unemployed, b do
Do Mary, Step Daur, 17, Rover in Factory, b do
Do Betsy, Step Daur, 14, Spinner in Factory, b do

The marriage of Ann Dyson HILTON in Bradford in 1889 is on FreeBMD - but is no help. Males on the page are Joseph CROSSLAND and Alfred Ernest TAYLOR Ann Dyson HILTON is probably a red herring. There's the marriage of an Eliza Ann DYSON on FreeBMD - Halifax, 1852 - and with an Irwell HILTON on the same page
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Offline Valda

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Re: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup
« Reply #31 on: Saturday 15 September 12 22:56 BST (UK) »
12 September 05

Hi Valda, Brilliant idea that Samuel might have been listed as Benjamin on the 1871. Looking back, I think that you just about came to that back on page 1!Both being at Revy/Revey Hall - Samuel the head in 1861, Benjamin the head in 1871 - is very telling. I think that Revy Hall was mentioned in earlier postings for Benjamin in 1871 but not for Samuel in 1861. And Elizabeth still being married in 1891 but a widow in 1901 is helpful. Martha A SUGDEN, age 4 in 1881 I had completely forgotten about. That's a good link. I looked through all the possible marriages for Ruth BENN yesterday and tried her in the 1881 census with each male on the same page without success. But I was looking for Ruth SUGDEN in the household of Adam SUGDEN but it seems as though poor Ruth had died given the 26yo widower Adam SUGDEN living alone in 1881.Braceland and Bursland defeat me - nothing on Genuki and Old Maps is down for maintenance. Perhaps 'dave the tyke' can help? Perhaps the enumerator got Samuel mixed up with the older Benjamin BENN (b ca 1797 Shelf) who, with wife Mary, was also living in North Bierley? If LDS submissions about births to a Benjamin BENN and a Mary are correct, the Samuel recorded to parents of these names isn't #5 (although they might have had a second unrecorded child of the same name). There are two Benjamin/Mary marriages unfortunately. Benjamin BENN m Mary HARRISON 1820 Halifax and Benjamin BENN m Mary WHITE 1834 Bradford (possibly two marriages of the same man?).Children in the IGI to a Benjamin BENN and a Mary are*Jane BEN bap Sep 1820, Methodist New Connexion, Amblerthorn*David BENN b Jun, bap Aug 1820, Whichfield Wesleyan Methodist, Shelf*Hannah BENN b May, bap Jul 1823, Whichfield Wesleyan Methodist, Shelf*Sarah BENN bap 15 Oct 1834, Bradford (also an LDS submission for the birth of a Sarah to a Benjamin and a Mary in Bradford as 1826) *Thomas BENN bap 15 Oct 1834, Bradford*Samuel BENN bap 1 Jun 1836, Bradford (also an LDS submission for the birth of a Samuel to a Benjamin and a Mary in Bradford as 1828)*William BENN bap 1 Jun 1836, Bradford (also an LDS submission for the birth of a William to a Benjamin and a Mary in Bradford as 1830)*LDS also has the birth of an Esther to a Benjamin and a Mary in Bradford in 1837*LDS also has the birth of a Joseph in 1839 (year only given) to a Benjamin and Mary in Clayton - which was also in Bradford.

Cheers,
JAP


14 September 05

Hi Listers, (and Dyson Listers?)I was away for 2 days so I've missed 2 pages of postings. First thank you Louise for the information that you posted. I recognise one or two names in there so I will have to study it closely later. Braceland - could that be Barkisland? a suburb of Halifax that is on the far side of Halifax from Shelf etc. and would be aprox 12 miles from Wibsey. Place names - Getting it into perspective If you imagine Bradford center as the center of a clock then coming outwards at 7 o'clock we have Little Horton, Wibsey (part of North Bierley), Buttershaw, Shelf. and over the watershed into Halifax (Northowram side and not far from Coley) Coming out at 8 o'clock we have Horton (also known as Great Horton to differentiate from Little Horton) Clayton (Clayton-by-Bradford) and Queensbury (Queenshead) again over the watershed to Halifax (Boothtown side). Parish boundaries that have existed since the Middle ages, are fairly clear in their definition, many of them are still walked by the church elders once a year to 'mark their territory' as it were. 'Political' boundaries on the other hand vary from administration to administration. So a place that was in Shelf for one census could theoretically, find itself in North Bierley for the next. Indeed Shelf and Queensbury are now both administered by Bradford. In the first half of the 19th C most of the places mentioned earlier were villages (hence Clayton-by-Bradford) but later in the Century weaving had developed from a cottage industry to factory production the coal industry and Iron and Steel works at Low Moor (again just a stones throw away from Wibsey) were found alongside the traditional weaving but many of the old pits were being worked out. Wibsey in 1870 was criss-crossed by railway lines that took the iron ore and coal from the mines and quarries to Low Moor - Coming from Bradford at 6 o'clock we have West Bowling, Low Moor and then Wyke. Gradually the villages became joined to one-another by housing and again this makes it difficult to differentiate the enumeration district boundaries. Lastly Revy/Revey Hall There is a road in Wibsey called Reevy Road I feel sure that this is the same place I hope that these little snippets may be of use.

Dave
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Offline Valda

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Re: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup
« Reply #32 on: Saturday 15 September 12 22:57 BST (UK) »
14 September 05

Dave (pun is excused!) and all, Sometimes I fear I get so caught up in other people's genealogical puzzles that I forget about my own! A couple of certificates have just arrived for deaths of my Gggmother, Mary (TRIPPIT) WOODCOCK and her father, my Ggggfather, George TRIPPIT - both in Barrow in Furness. But as I was entering them into my genealogical program I was reminded that(a) Gggma Mary's brother Joseph TRIPPIT was born 1838 in Low Moor (b) Gggma Mary's husband, Joseph WOODCOCK, was born in Shelf ca 1834 (1861 census his birthplace is Shelf, and 1871, 1881 and 1891 it is Halifax). (Perhaps the chap in the IGI, bap 1833 in Wibsey, son of Thomas and Elizabeth?) My Ggfather, Samuel TRIPPIT, was Mary's illegitimate son born in Hunslet nr Leeds in 1848. In 1851 he appears in Hunslet with his grandparents (George b Attercliffe nr Sheffield, and Jane/Mary b Hunslet), his mother Mary (b Rawmarsh), and Mary's brother and sister Joseph b Low Moor and Elizabeth b Hunslet.Gggma Mary (aged about 23) married Joseph WOODCOCK (aged about 18 from age in 1861-1891 censuses) in 1852 in Leeds. Joseph WOODCOCK and Gggma Mary had Elizabeth A b Leeds 1854, Thomas b Low Moor1857, and George E b Low Moor1859. In 1861 they are together in Chadderton Lancashire plus my Ggpa Samuel who is recorded as Samuel WOODCOCK(sic), b Leeds, age 12, Joseph's son(sic).Joseph, Mary, Thomas, George, and daughter Anne b Farnley  ca 1861 are together in Barrow in Furness in 1871. My Ggpa Samuel TRIPPIT has married Ggma Anne Elizabeth BROWNELL in 1868 in Sheffield. They haven't been found in 1871 - and they emigrated to New Zealand in 1875 with their children including my Gma Ada TRIPPIT who was born in Barrow in Furness (just recently found that - she knew she was born in Sheffield!).I am now looking at Shelfand Low Moorthrough different eyes!

JAP


15 September 05

Judy, I cannot believe you have not mentioned this before. So we had family in the same place. Joseph Woodcock, the second husband of your Great Great Grandma was born in the same village as my Samuel Benn only a couple of years before. Obviously they knew each other, probably ran round the streets together in a big group at some point. How fabulous. Can I utilise my new Bradford 1851 census cd for you in any way?T hey moved about a bit didn't they, the Woodcock family, I find that rather strange really. You don't say what Joseph and Samuel did for a living, I would imagine the answer lies there. Chadderton in Lancashire isn't quite such a big move from Low Moor, Bradford. Chadderton (now part of a greater Manchester sprawl and close to Oldham) is only just in Lancashire from Yorkshire but they would have had to face a certain amount of leg-pulling from their friends, there is an ancient rivalry between the two counties, and it is possible that they weren't welcomed very warmly either. Perhaps that is why they made the next move, a really big distance to Barrow in Furness. Barrow is one of the least lovely towns on the Cumbrian coast, an industrial town that is quite hard to get to. I don't think they would have been so unfriendly though. Was Joseph a ship-builder? And then Samuel met a Sheffield lass, again this is a big long way away. I cannot imagine what he was doing so far from Barrow, unless of course he was a steel worker. Barrow and Sheffield were the two biggest steel areas in England I should think. http//www.visitcumbria.com/sl/barrow.htmThis link is quite good looking at the history of the town as it would have been before Ada and her parents emigrated. Let me know if I can look anything up for you, or take a trip to take photographs. Chadderton is very near where my bloke's mum lives for instance and I can be in Low Moor and Shelf this weekend, I will be passing very close on my way home to see my parents.

Best wishes
Louise
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Offline Valda

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Re: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup
« Reply #33 on: Saturday 15 September 12 22:59 BST (UK) »
15 September 05   
      
Please could one of you look up Ellen Benn's birth reference in circa 1872and her marriage reference circa 1891 - 1895ish, married to Thomas Henry Wood Also the birth reference for Joshua Benn circa 1871.I shall send off for these to find out who their father was recorded as, Samuel or Benjamin. The more I think about the 1871 census, the more I really like the idea of the enumerator asking "and who is the father? who is the senior Mr Benn?" and someone, Elizabeth perhaps saying "Benjamin", because he was the father she thought of, just not the father the enumerator had in mind. Lots more information from you all for me to take in, but I feel we need to sort out the Benjamin/Samuel thing first before I move forward with anything else. Incidentally I note that there was a Samuel, son of Benjamin and Mary, in my notes from non-conformist records displayed earlier, who "died in Shelf 1857 aged 26.Benjamin (above) died 7th January 1864 aged 67Mary (wife of above) died 9th July 1894 aged 92"This would have made him born 1831. This could have been candidate 6 who was not on the 1861 census or subsequent ones. However, that being the case, who was the Samuel son of Abraham and Ruth that we already thought was candidate 6 and had merged with candidate 8 who was still alive in 1881. Unfortunately the Benjamin above who died in 1864 was born in 1797, as was the man on the 1871 census. So not only were the sons born very close together in age but the fathers were too. This is a toughie at every level. I am muddying the waters, I will stop now. I might print all these pages off and take them on the train to London with me next week, then I can have another go at understanding it all as I travel.

Best wishes and thanks
Louise


15 September 05

Dear Louise, Very very simple answer to why I hadn't mentioned it before - I hadn't twigged!!I'd totally forgotten that poor Mary TRIPPIT's first and only husband Joseph WOODCOCK was born in Shelf! Let's not mince words Joseph WOODCOCK was her first husband but, presumably - especially given Joe's age (only 18 when he married Mary in 1852) - not the father of my illegitimate Ggpa Samuel TRIPPIT. Samuel TRIPPIT, b 1848, was Mary TRIPPIT's first child - Joseph WOODCOCK would only have been 14 then!!Only when I went to enter the newly-arrived certificates in my genie program did the penny drop. And obviously this was too much for my desktop because it has played silly b****rs and has gone back to some sort of square one this morning. I'm sure I did nothing to cause this. So I'm now on the resuscitated laptop. But it died months ago (not the hard disk but the computer) and the hard disk wasn't resuscitated into another laptop until recently (visit of one of my two overseas resident computer boffin sons). So, unless I can find some miracle re the desktop (with no in-house expertise) I'm going to have a BIG GAP. Stupid me! You would have to know that, last night (truly it was only last night), I thought that I must transfer everything across from the desktop to the laptop - but decided to wait until today... I swear, these computers can read one's mind. I think I can hear the cackling ...As the pundits say - back up, back up, back up ...One certainly pays the price for not doing so. I do like the idea of your Sam and my Mary's Joe terrorizing Shelf in the local gang of kids! Samuel TRIPPIT was a forgeman like his father George, and Joseph WOODCOCK was also a forgeman.

All the best,JAP/Judy
PS
When my Samuel married in Sheffield in 1868 his father was listed as Joseph TRIPPIT boilermaker. In NZ his wife Anne Elizabeth BROWNELL listed Samuel as illegitimate.


15 September 05

Well as it happens I have a postcard of the furnace at Shelf taken Cir. 1908 so it is quite possible that that was where your ancestors worked. Is it possible to attach it to this site? Answers in very simple computer jargon please!! Most of my ancestors from around 1850-80 and from this area were putting X's on their marriage certificates. So the enumerator would have filled out the form himself. If he infact put the father’s name - and I support this theory - no one would have been any the wiser. It is possible that he wrote Benjamin as Ben superscript m and that could easily be mistaken for Benn or visa versa. Have you looked at the actual census return? My Mark(e) Benn was born in Witchfield, Shelf 1822. A Quarryman. Witchfield is at one end of Cooper Lane, the other end is in Horton (Horton Bank Top to be precise). Do you have more precise locations for your ancestors within Shelf? A bit of info for our more distant cousins. Shelf is/was a sparsely populated but sprawling community in a general sort of way, whereas Wibsey is small and densely populated. Wibsey still retains a bit of village atmosphere (As do Queensbury and Clayton). There is a thin strip of green that is almost continuous between these places and Bradford and all of them lie outside the Bradford Ring Road, further isolating them from the ever growing immigrant communities and industrial Bradford itself.

Dave

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Offline Valda

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Re: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 15 September 12 23:00 BST (UK) »
16 September 05

JAP Have you had a look for a boilermaker named Joseph Trippit? Or have you assumed that this was a reference to Joseph Woodcock? I don't see why a 14 year old boy could not have fathered a child but I do think that if he had they would not have waited 4 further years to get married when 2 (or fewer?) would have done. So I agree with you that JW is probably not Sam's father, but maybe there really was a Joseph Trippit, and by the time Sam was old enough to be married, JT had become a boiler maker if he wasn't already (I'm thinking he was a teenage father).I'm really sorry to hear about your PC problems. Do you keep your records on paper too so that you can transfer information? I am shuddering on your behalf.

Best wishes
Louise
PS I shall pop to Shelf on Saturday


16 September 05
 
Well as it happens I have a postcard of the furnace at Shelf taken Cir. 1908 so it is quite possible that that was where your ancestors worked. Is it possible to attach it to this site? Answers in very simple computer jargon please!! Dave, personally I don’t know where in Shelf my Samuel Benn came from, if at all, JAP might know more on her side. To attach the postcard of the furnace you would need to scan it and then save it as a JPEG. You would need to make sure that the opened image was not more than about 5" square otherwise it won’t fit on the screen or in the box provided. To get it to this size you open it after scanning it and saving it and look for any button or tool called "re-size" .When you have it small enough it will also consist of a correspondingly smaller number of kbs. Often when people first scan and send photos they are huge and if fully opened would be a metre square, they consist of 1 megabyte and are far too big and take ages to send or receive, it is a common mistake. They are that big because they are intensely detailed but it is not necessary in this kind of forum to see every hair on the chin. You don’t really want anything bigger than about 300kbOnce resized you can attach your image by replying to a message and then going to the second button along on the bottom row of the colourful grey boxes above the place you type. It is a tiny picture of a tiny picture. Once you have clicked this you will be asked to browse your hard drive to find the place where you saved your scanned postcard and then click to attach it and send it. I don’t know the precise instructions but it will be pretty straightforward. Have a go, good luck

Louise
PS there are tips on how to do this on the techie pages in the common room


17 September 05

Hi Louise, Nice of you to try to give Samuel a named father! I suspect the name of Joseph TRIPPIT (dec), Boilermaker was just Samuel trying to make things look better at the time of his marriage. Perhaps his wife Annie didn't know at the time that he was illegitimate. Or perhaps she did, but they didn't want to tell her parents. And I'd like to think that that there was nothing sinister about him picking the name of his uncle (his mother's brother!). When Samuel died of Phthisis in New Zealand at the age of 29 (leaving his wife with 6 children aged under 10 and another on the way), his wife was the informant (she signed her name). The section on parents of the deceased lists(1) Illegitimate(2) Mary Trippit (3) (blank)The certificate says that he had been in NZ for 3 years, and gives his birthplace as Oldham Lancashire. Actually it was Hunslet nr Leeds - but in the 1861 census Samuel was in Chadderton nr Oldham (with his mother, stepfather Joseph WOODCOCK, and half-siblings) so either Annie didn't know that Samuel hadn't been born there, or she was confused.

J

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Offline Valda

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Re: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 15 September 12 23:01 BST (UK) »
20 September 05
 
Hi,this is my 99th and last attempt to attach a photo. I am not sure who has the copyright to this postcard, I got it from a web site so no comercial useage please.
         
20 September 05

Apparently we are not allowed to post photos onto the look-up board so I wasted a lot of time for nothing. Does anyone have any Benn BMD certs or photos or any articles of interest that they can pass on? or other likely ancestors from the Shelf / Wibsey region? I think we may have to open a forum on a different board to make use of them. I have the following interests in the area and bits and bats of info on each of them Bland, Greenwood Bland, Ellis, Benn, Woodhead, Priestley, Illingworth, Brear, Bateman, Crossley, Hepworth, Holdsworth, Stocks, Tordoff, Flathers, Pearson, Yeadon, Dewhirst, Ormandroyd, Wilman, Tate and Sharp. What do you guys think? I don't want to Hijack your board.

Regards
Dave


21 September 05

Dear Dave I am not worried about your hijacking my thread and what you suggest sounds like a good idea. However, I don’t think this is the right place for you to post your information as it might be missed. You should go to the general pages for the West Riding and set up your own thread, put it all in there with a catchy title. I will be happy to contribute to it for a start Dear Valda and Judy I went to the Records Office in Kew yesterday, although had less time there than I had hoped. I found some papers relating to John Wilson Benn but was not able to copy them in the time permitting. I have made a note so that I can arrange for their staff to take copies for me at some point. WO364 showed John Wilson Benn's pensioning out papers in 1914 - he must not have fancied being in the war I think, too old perhaps by then? I know he carried on as a volunteer in Singapore, I think that is like the TA more or less. Anyway, the important thing is that he joined up as John Wilson. The Benn was added later by hand. He did not join up as John W Wilson, just John Wilson. This is very exciting as apart from anything else it shows he did not know that he was "adopted" or if he did, he did not know his father's name. As I say I was not able to copy out the papers but he seemed to have started his army activities in Jan 1899 when he was 17 years and 11 months - I expect his "parents" told him the truth when he was 18, or 21, I will know more when I get the copies and can work out when it was that his name changed. It might back up that part of the family story - that he was called Wilson because of his adopted parents, rather than because it was his actual name - but I won’t know until I (remember to) get in touch with the Superintendent Registrar to confirm what it does say on his birth certificate. As promised I spent a few hours on the train going through all the papers from this thread. I was excited to re-read the information about Nellie Wilson and her child - I will be having a look on FreeBMD and 1837online to see if I can find any registrations for any John W Wilsons - although I am now wondering again. If he signed up as John Wilson (no middle name) then perhaps he did not know he had a middle name and did not use it - we know he did have one from his birth certificate, although not what it was as yet. But if he didn’t use it in the army then would his "mother" have used it on the census? Who knows, I like the feel of her though, of that family unit. (Does anyone else allow gut feeling and instinct to help them out with their genealogy?)I also re-examined Samuel Benn and have decided that in all probability, even if he is the husband of Elizabeth and father of all those children, I am pretty sure he is not the son of Benjamin and Mary - those on a nearby farm. They definitely feature in my regurgitated "old" notes as the Buttershaw people whose son Samuel died in 1857.So my Sam is someone else's child. Not exactly back to square one but not greatI was not able to go to Shelf in the end, but will go soon-ish

Best wishes
Louise

PS I wonder if it is at all possible that you are able to look up the references I asked about before. I know you are busy and I do thank you from the bottom of my heart for all you have been able to do for me before. If you cannot look them up then I will put up a separate request. Please could one of you look up Ellen Benn's birth reference in circa 1872and her marriage reference circa 1891 - 1895ish, married to Thomas Henry Wood Also the birth reference for Joshua Benn circa 1871.Then I can find out whether their father is Benjamin or Samuel.PPS I was thinking yesterday about why Samuel became Benjamin, if he did. I wondered if the enumerator asked "What is the name of the head of house" to be told "Benn", "Ben?" says he, "Benn" confirms the resident. "Ben what?" says the enumerator, "Oh, just Benn" says the resident. Hence "Ben Benn" Just an idea
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk