Author Topic: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup  (Read 19995 times)

Offline Valda

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Re: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup
« Reply #99 on: Sunday 16 September 12 00:52 BST (UK) »
10 March 06

NOW IM TOTALLY CONFUSED ! I have completely lost the convo so i thought i would put in what i have to confuse matters even more !  I have in my tree JOHN WIDDOP born Silsden 1836, married ARABELLA LONGBOTTOM and had 5 known children, BOOTH, WILLIE, LUCY, EDITH AND MINNIE. if you have a link please get in touch ?

Best wishes
Joanne

   
      
10 March 06

Hi Louise and fellow listers, Alec Bevers Wilkinson b 1907 Wibsey married Lilly Fearnley. Their son Brian b 1933 in Burley married Mavis Lister from Bradford. Of course this is just a very red herring and I'm just letting you know that I haven't deserted you. Slaithwaite (pronounced Slowit) is out in the wilds near Huddersfield near J25 (I think) on the M62. A longish way from Wibsey.

Regards
Dave

         
March 06 1822

Hello Just a quick note to say that I have not forgotten this wonderful thread either. I have two main outstanding tasks.1. To go to Bradford and look at parish registers for Samuel Benn's birth and family to verify whether there are any other possibilities 2. To go to London GRO and look at army papers for John William/Wilson Benn in the period prior to 1899.These and other tasks though will have to wait until May now as I have other commitments in the short term. But all your hard work will not have gone to waste, I promise

Best wishes
Louise
   

      
26 April 06

I've just come to this thread. The coming of the 1841 census prompted me to look again at my northern ancestors. I don't know the area well and I find that frustrating. My gt gt grandmother was Sarah BENN born Rochdale 1852. Her father, Joseph born 1828, came from Halifax. I think his father was Josuah. From the IGI it looks as if the family were Zionists. I searched the SIT and found Louise who pointed me towards this amazing thread. The 3 lads on the left are Sarah's grandchildren.
         


26 April 06

I can't remember now - did we ever find the Benns on the 1841 census?HO107 1292/2 ED2 Page 12Brown Royd? Hill North Brierley Bradford Yorkshire Mary Benn 45 Yorkshire Elizabeth Benn 20 Yorkshire Stuff weaver Mary Benn 15 Yorkshire Stuff weaver Margeart Benn 8 Yorkshire Samuel Benn 7 Yorkshire Joshua Benn 4 Yorkshire

Regards
Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Valda

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Re: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup
« Reply #100 on: Sunday 16 September 12 00:53 BST (UK) »
11 October 06

Well it has taken ages but my mum has done a splendid job down in the PRO in Kew and has finally found the attestation papers for John William/Wilson Benn when he joined the Yorkshire Artillery militia in January 1899.He was aged 19, 5'7" and weighed a miserable 116lbs He was living at 105 Chuch Street, Manningham, Bradford and called himself John Wilson. I have re-read all the thread and Nellie Wilson and Robert Rawnsley Wilson were living at 105 Church Street in 1881 without a baby John and Nellie the widow was living at 105 Church Street in 1891 with a 10 year old John. So it is definitely them. John then joined the Yorkshire Artillery Militia in 1899 and then the Northumberland Fusiliers in 1902.We cannot find him on the 1901 census so he was probably on manouevres somewhere. We have found a possible Nellie Wilson in 1901 in Scarborough in some sort of home.John married Daisy Kate Hilton in Scarborough in 1903 as a fusilier. So, the mystery is solved.My great grandad the foundling was brought up by Mrs Wilson and did change his name from John William Benn to John William Wilson, then to John Wilson and then to John Wilson Benn.

The only thing we don’t really know is how Eliza Vipond knew Nellie Wilson and what kind of relationship they had that meant Nellie bringing up the child. But we do believe that in all probability Nellie Wilson was the witness at Eliza's subsequent wedding to John Long so they might have been friends already, or became friends following the "adoption".We know that Nellie Wilson was nee Beevers and we don’t have any Beevers in Eliza Vipond nee Lister's family tree so far as we can see, although we don’t know much about her mother, Betty Widdop's family, so a Beevers might be in there somewhere. Did babies go to families and friends, or might they go to strangers? Poor Nellie, left widowed, son Tiras emigrates and adopted son joins the army and goes off round the world. I wonder what happened to her

Best wishes
Louise
         
         
12 October 06

I'm obviously pleased the militia records finally proved the key and gave just enough information to prove the connection. It is always worth mopping up all the records you can find connections to.

Regards
Valda
         
   
      
04 January 07
 
There are around 122 Nellie Wilsons in Yorkshire in 1901 but Nellie in Scarborough is the only one born in the first half of the C19th. Probably the usual interesting coincidence. The other Nellies all have birth dates from the 1870s onwards.Working class widow and hotel don't really go together until the second half of the C20th and probably the Nellie you are interested doesn't go with the Scarborough 'home'. I'm not quite sure what sort of a place it was but these are all the people who were there census night. All single unless specified (including Nellie) Julia S Mackarness 64 Clapham, Middlesex, Head Hon. Lady Supt of Home Katherine E Haverfield 38 Shipton on Stour, Worcestershire, Niece Deputy Lady Supt of Home Caroline L C B Molineux 32 Kennington, London, Visitor Lady Nurse
I have had a look on the Scarborough directory and 38 Ramshill Road is a fruit and game dealer owned by Mr Richards, in a row of shops, in between a book shop and a grocers.However, Miss Julia Mackarness is a matron of a Convalescent Home, St. Martin's lodge, South cliff. Her father is Mackarness Rev. Charles Coleridge, M.A., St. Martin's vicarage, South cliff Now Daisy Kate Hilton who married John William Wilson/Benn worked in a convalescent home in Scarborough, I think it was called the Sanitorium when they married in 1903....So, it looks like Nellie was convalescing on the census.


05 January 07

And of course with every year we progress nearer the release of the 1911 census - now just under a mere 5 years away. So you get another shot at Nellie in Scarborough or elsewhere, if she lived up to 1911.

Regards
Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline LouiseB31

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Re: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup
« Reply #101 on: Sunday 16 September 12 12:35 BST (UK) »
I would like to publicly thank Valda, ArranRoots and Trystan for their help in resurrecting this thread, I am extremely grateful to you all. This means a lot to me and my family, very best wishes, Louise
Baldock, Millward, Harriman, Wilson, Hilton, Fairclough, Hadley, Bedford, Brady, Butler, Watchorn, Marshall, Jutson, Pinfold, Masters, Mottram, Upton, Daffern, Shellswell, Skelding, Wall, Taylor, Scattergood, Ferguson, Innous, Mulley, Hyams

Offline LouiseB31

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Re: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup
« Reply #102 on: Thursday 03 March 16 11:21 GMT (UK) »
Good morning

I wanted to let you know that I have finally cracked the mystery of Samuel Benn's parentage and given the work that so many put into this research I thought you would want to know.

To recap, we began with Samuel Benn on my Great Grandfather's birth certificate in February 1881 at 26 Bank, Eccleshill, Bradford, and a month or so later on the 1881 census with mother and child (and two other children, neither his) at the same address. He is aged 41 and born in Shelf. 

We couldn't find a marriage to Eliza (there was none actually), and we couldn't find anyone else who looked right for Samuel of that age. So we drew up a list, together, of every possible Samuel Benn on any census in Bradford and Halifax and ruled them out, laboriously, until we were left with only one candidate; husband to and father of 9 children with Elizabeth Jowett.

This Samuel, our Samuel, was born in Shelf circa 1836/7 on a few censuses.

(The research until this point had taken me 24 years)

I found his marriage at Bradford Parish Church (now the cathedral) to Elizabeth Jowett in 1853 where his father was given as William Benn, weaver.

And there the research ended, totally stuck.

Yesterday, like many times before, and 9 years since the last breakthrough I decided to have another go at it;  I decided to search on Findmypast for anyone called Benn with a father called William living in Yorkshire with a 30 year window either side of Samuel's approximate age. This brought up a small group of people getting married in Bradford Cathedral, all laboriously recording that their father was William Benn, weaver.

John Benn born 1826 marrying Ann Birch in 1856
Margaret Benn born 1832 marrying Isaac Kellett in 1849
Mary Benn born 1825 marrying John Hartley in 1846

This gave me a small family group to search for on the 1841 census.

What I found was
HO107/1295/1/10 p 14 
Clayton Heights, Thornton, Bradford

Martha Benn           36
Margaret Benn          9
Samuel Benn            7
James Benn              5
Betty Benn               2

All born Yorkshire with no sign of William

This gave me a couple more names to add to the small family group I was developing and the first sign of their mother's name.

I searched for the children with father William / mother Martha but only could find John. He was baptised in 1837, 11 years after his birth (which was given in 1826 born Clayton Heights) in Queenshead General Baptist Chapel, Clayton.

After some more thought and quiet frustration, I searched for the children using only their mother's name; I came up with a series of three, on the same page - of the Queenshead General Baptist Chapel - on the same day as John in 1837.

However, their father was given as Isaac Sharp (and mother Martha Benn, daughter of John Firth) born in Hunger Hill, Northowram, Halifax.

I should point out that this is a very different register to a Church of England Parish Register, there were only three entries to the page but they were long and included an affidavit from Martha as to their date and place of birth. 

I should also point out that the village of Clayton Heights and the hamlet of Hunger Hill are both part of modern day Queensbury ward, Bradford, but back in the mid 1800s these were divided between Halifax and Bradford.


Margaret Benn born 1832
Samuel Benn born 1834
James Benn born 1835

Obviously their parents were not married so they took their mother's surname.

At last I had found him. Samuel. Not the son of William Benn at all, but the son of Isaac Sharp.

The 1851 census showed the family living together in Clayton (Holmes Hill) with Isaac Sharp as the Head and Martha Firth as a servant; their children shown with the Sharp surname and a few new children added to the group - Anthony and Fanny.

The 1861 census and subsequent ones show the Sharp family with Martha now a Sharp herself.

I found a marriage between Matty Firth and William Benn on 30 Jul 1826 at St John the Baptist,  Halifax

And another between Matty Benn and Isaac Sharp on 8th May 1859 in Bradford parish church.

So, after about 20 years together they were finally able to marry - I suspect William Benn must have died around this point....

I found Isaac Sharp on the 1841 census eventually, he was living a few doors away from Martha and the children, the indexers have put him in a household with James and Fanny Sharp but I am not absolutely certain, there are three lines /// drawn between each of the three of them, they may have been neighbours rather than cohabiting. But I don't mind if it is hard, if it is going to take a while to unravel; after all it has taken 33 years to find out the names of my great great great grandparents. Good things come to those who wait.

I thought about Matty and Isaac last thing before I went to sleep and first thing when I awoke, it is the most joyous feeling in the world.

Nothing beats genealogy

Thanks for letting me share!

Baldock, Millward, Harriman, Wilson, Hilton, Fairclough, Hadley, Bedford, Brady, Butler, Watchorn, Marshall, Jutson, Pinfold, Masters, Mottram, Upton, Daffern, Shellswell, Skelding, Wall, Taylor, Scattergood, Ferguson, Innous, Mulley, Hyams


Offline LouiseB31

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Re: Joseph Dyson Lister the Independent Zionist, census lookup
« Reply #103 on: Tuesday 08 November 22 19:39 GMT (UK) »
For completeness, I need to tell you that a few weeks after I wrote the March 2016 post, identifying Joseph Dyson Lister's father, Samuel Benn, and his grandfather Isaac Thorp, I discovered through a DNA test that Joseph is not my biological great grandfather. The research in this thread is all true and all stands. And it has been enjoyed and appreciated by Joseph's biological descendants.
I have identified who my great grandfather really was and that has been a true joy, so all is not lost.
A huge irony though, all the same.
Baldock, Millward, Harriman, Wilson, Hilton, Fairclough, Hadley, Bedford, Brady, Butler, Watchorn, Marshall, Jutson, Pinfold, Masters, Mottram, Upton, Daffern, Shellswell, Skelding, Wall, Taylor, Scattergood, Ferguson, Innous, Mulley, Hyams