Author Topic: Myrangle NSW?  (Read 6212 times)

Offline majm

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Re: Myrangle NSW?
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 22 September 12 03:28 BST (UK) »
I have made contact with the relevant church regarding the missing details from the NSW marriage certificate. I will have a bit of a wait though, because the records have apparently been taken to Bathurst to be microfilmed for preservation. They will get back to me in due course.

Hi there,

Just a thought or two to help you shorten the wait for the digitised version to become available.

There is a public tree online at Ancestry that shows a Joseph ATKINSON marrying in September 1868 at WELLINGTON NSW at age 48.   ???   
The children include:
William, 1862-1942;  John, 1864-1941;  Pearson, 1866-1940; Sarah H, 1868-1888; Mary Elizabeth, 1871-1934; Susan 1873-1973; Susannah (Susan) 1873- ?; Jonas 1877-1919.  This tree has Joseph as born in Yorkshire in about 1820. 

HOWEVER, there is another public tree online at Ancestry that shows a Joseph ATKINSON marrying in 1868 at ORANGE NSW at age 22.   ??? 
The children include: William Joseph 1862-1942; an un-named son born 1864; Sarah H 1868-1888;  Mary Elizabeth 1871-1934; Susan 1873-1873; Susannah 1875 - ?; Jonas 1877-1919.     This tree has Joseph as born in NSW in 1846.

I am not sure if the age of the groom is as per the marriage certificate or is simply deduced, but there's a generational difference between age 48 at marriage and age 22 at marriage. 

Both trees show that Joseph died in September 1906, NEITHER tree has offered any supporting documentation for the details they have uploaded.  HOWEVER, it seems to me that it is likely that some collaboration (perhaps sharing documents at least) between yourself and the tree owners may well help you sort out your own dilemma (including if the 1868 marriage was only celebrated as a civil marriage) as the tree owners have both “logged in” to Ancestry within the past several days…..     

Cheers,  JM

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Offline Katharine75

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Re: Myrangle NSW?
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 22 September 12 08:09 BST (UK) »
I have two copies of the marriage certificate. One is a copy that someone has ordered from the registry dated 1994, and the other is a transcript from Joy Murrin dated 2002.

The information that appears on both are:

Date of marriage - 30 Sep 1868
Place married - Orange
Religion - blank
Groom name - Joseph Atkinson
conjugal status - bachelor
birthplace - blank
occupation- labourer
age - blank
usual residence - Orange
father - blank
mother - blank
occupation of father - blank
Bride name - Catherine McKenna
conjugal status - widow
birthplace - blank
occupation - blank
age - blank
usual residence - Orange
father- blank
mother - blank
occupation of father - blank
Witnesses- August Coulson, Ann Thomson
Minister - W.T.Evans

The bride signed with her mark.

I have seen the all the trees for this family on ancestry. Some of them have gross inaccuracies in regard to the deaths of this couple, and Joseph's parentage. I am in contact with a few of the people, and we are working together to swap information, and hopefully solve a bit of this mystery.
As for the dates you have seen.....their is a discrepency in the ages. He was certainly older than her by roughly 10 years.
In 1864 he gave his age as 38, and I can't read hers unfortunately.
In 1871 they gave their ages as 48 and 37.
In 1877 they gave their ages as 57 and 47.
And of course their ages from their death certificates: He died 1906 aged 85, informant was wife Catherine. She died in 1912 aged 89, informant was son Jonas.

So as you can see - the ages don't quite add up!

From what I have found on the internet - W.T.Evans was a Clerk of Petty Sessions in Orange. I couldn't find anything on a W.T.Evans associated with a church or as a minister.

Just to clarify - are you saying that the actual register that would contain the missing information would now be housed at BDM registry rather than at Orange Courthouse itself, and that I should contact the registry.

Katharine.



Offline majm

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Re: Myrangle NSW?
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 22 September 12 08:28 BST (UK) »
I have two copies of the marriage certificate. One is a copy that someone has ordered from the registry dated 1994, and the other is a transcript from Joy Murrin dated 2002.

........

From what I have found on the internet - W.T.Evans was a Clerk of Petty Sessions in Orange. I couldn't find anything on a W.T.Evans associated with a church or as a minister.

Just to clarify - are you saying that the actual register that would contain the missing information would now be housed at BDM registry rather than at Orange Courthouse itself, and that I should contact the registry.
 

Hi there,

I am saying that in about May 1984 (I may be out a couple of months, I am relying on memory of a conversation from that year between myself and a now retired public official) the office of the NSW Registrar General for Births, Deaths, Marriages sought the original ledgers of civil registrations from the Court Houses.  These civil ledgers were to be forwarded to Sydney for ARCHIVING purposes.  As I understand it, this was NOT designed to assist with the failed reconciliation of church and civil records, but simply to archive the Reg Gen’s records….  I am not aware of any current access for members of the public to those archived ledgers transferred in the 1980s from the various rural court houses to Sydney ……   

On the 1994 issued certificate, what (if any) information is found in the margin/space immediately BEFORE (to the immediate left of) the heading for the Date of the Marriage OR is that document a computerised (EDP STYLE) entry rather than the actual image of the original entry?   

Also, I am interested in learning what (if any) is written in the section that follows the words “according to the rites of …….” as this is usually where the denomination (for religious ceremonies) is recorded.  Is that section “blank” or does it cite an Act of the NSW Parliament or the NSW regulation that authorised W T Evans to conduct marriages? 


Cheers,  JM
 
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Offline majm

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Re: Myrangle NSW?
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 22 September 12 08:52 BST (UK) »
Hi there,

As an aside perhaps …..

Re:  W T EVANS

On a petition from local landowners and householders to the NSW Parliament in 1859, re seeking Orange to become a Municipality  under the Municipalities Act of 1858  is a W.T. Evans, C.P.S.   Also listed is a Patrick Kenna.  The petition notes that the Town of Orange contains about 400 inhabitants and the petition contains around 80 signatures.  It was in the NSW Government Gazette of Friday 26 August 1859. 

I think cupoflife’s suggestion re trying the Orange Family History Group offered on your completed thread re “What does CPS stand for” is very sensible, particularly as not everything is findable online.   
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,616341.msg4651122.html#msg4651122 

ADDING

“ His Excellency the Governor has appointed Mr. William Tucker Evans to be Clerk of Petty Sessions at Orange.”
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12926292 SMH 14 April 1851.


Cheers,  JM
 
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline Katharine75

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Re: Myrangle NSW?
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 22 September 12 09:32 BST (UK) »
I have hopefully attached a copy of the certificate from 1994  (not attached photos before!)- it is the only one I have and is poor quality. It look like it has a number on the side, but that might be the registry entry number (?).

I realise that I am not going to find this information online, but was just hoping to clarify WHERE it would currently be so I can ask for the details! I will go and have a look at the Orange Family History Group website to contact them.

What do you make of W.T.Evans listed as their celebrant?

Offline Katharine75

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Re: Myrangle NSW?
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 22 September 12 09:40 BST (UK) »
Ooops! It won't let me send it for some reason - it just times out and says error. I will PM you my email address. If you email me I can attach it to the reply. Katharine.

Offline majm

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Re: Myrangle NSW?
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 23 September 12 04:53 BST (UK) »
Hi there,

Thank you for your PM and the subsequent email with the attachment of the 1994 issued NSW BDM certificate.  I can clearly see that WT Evans, Registrar officiated at that marriage.   I make that comment because of the horizontal line drawn through the words  “Officiating Minister or” as per the attached snip.   

The full line on a blank form reads:
By (or before) me …………………… Officiating Minister or Registrar.

The NSW BDM certificate is simply a summary of the information on the original register, HOWEVER, without current access to that register it will be difficult to determine what was actually recorded by W T Evans on HIS ledger/register when he conducted the civil marriage.   I believe that the NSW BDM certificate is drawn from the SUMMARY return he submitted as part of his quarterly returns.

 I do think that the Orange Family History Group may be a good place to make enquiries about that particular marriage ceremony.  It could be among the earliest of the civil marriages conducted in the district.   I notice he refrained from recording the bride’s birth surname.  It OUGHT to be included it in the very section where WT Evans wrote the bride’s name.  That is, he was required to record it as Catherine McKenna formerly ………..   However, he did NOT write it there.   He did record that she was a Widow. 

The term “Widow” had a broad meaning at that time.  Prior to the introduction of NSW Divorce Laws in 1873 there were just TWO words available to be used.   “Spinster” and “Widow”.   Widow in that sense does NOT just mean a woman whose marriage ended when her husband died.  I think this aspect could be significant in your particular search.  It may go some way to explaining why the marriage was NOT conducted by a Minister of Religion, for there were certainly a number of denominations active in Orange in that era.   It is possible that Catherine’s first marriage had INFORMALLY ended due to their separating, rather than the death of her first husband.   It is possible that Catherine’s marriage to Joseph was only possible AFTER she had confirmed to W T Evans that she had been separated for at least seven years and that during that time she had NOT known her first husband to be alive.    I think the likely reason for no religious ceremony (very very very rare for NO religious ceremony in that part of NSW at that time) was simply because at some time previous to their Sept 1868 marriage, the couple had perhaps sought a religious ceremony but had not been able to demonstrate the seven years separation or lack of knowledge as to the whereabouts of the first husband to the clergyman they approached.  YES, this is pure speculation on my part.   Sometimes raising this particular issue can cause controversy even today as it raises the topic of Bigamy…  To help you overcome any adverse commentary about that, may I refer you to an online resource that I frequently post on various threads at RChat….  (Particularly the  section Australia: bigamy and the presumption of death: a ‘people’s divorce.  http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html


There are two sets of numbers at the left side of the document.  One is “3001” which is the NSW BDM matching number.   The next number is definitely hard to read.  It OUGHT to be the line number in the original register, and as such it ought to help the locals find the elusive details, HOWEVER that depends on IF that original register is no longer accessible to the general public, then it will be a tad of a ‘dead end’ exercise to try to walk down that line of research.

So, perhaps your enquiry to the Orange Family History Group should also ask

a)   If the early Court House records had been transcribed
b)   If they are aware of other CIVIL only marriages conducted by  W T Evans  and if so, IF he actually recorded the elusive information when organising those civil marriages…. (He should have, BUT he would have been aware of the ongoing dispute between the Civil Administration and the Churches, and the reluctance of the Church authorities to provide those elusive details…….
c)   If they have any information about either the bride and or the groom and their then ages, their parents etc.

Here’s two snips from the 1994 copy you sent me.  I hope these help not just yourself, but other RChatters following this thread.  Hopefully there’s others who have experienced similar ‘hurdles’, when searching for civil marriages conducted in NSW prior to the introduction of NSW Divorce in 1873.   I am not sure I can help any further re the elusive missing details from the certificate.

Cheers,  JM
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Offline Katharine75

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Re: Myrangle NSW?
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 23 September 12 07:19 BST (UK) »
Thanks JM. I will check out the link you have posted. In terms of there being something postponing the marriage to 1868 - this is what we had suspected all along, as they were baptising the earlier children, so it wasn't that they couldn't get married because there were no ministers near to them.
I have already sent a message to OFHG again to see what they can tell me about W.T.Evans and the courthouse registers.

Interesting that it could be an early civil ceremony!

I wonder if there might be some note of the marriage in Quarter Sessions returns at the NSW State Archives. I will investigate that over the next few weeks. I will also have a look at newspapers and Police Gazettes (but I think its too early for them) for missing persons (re: Husband McKenna) and abandoned or runaway wives (re: Catherine McKenna).

Thanks a million, Katharine.

Offline majm

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Re: Myrangle NSW?
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 23 September 12 07:30 BST (UK) »
Hi

I should add, that it is also significant that Catherine made her mark rather than signing the register.  This to me supports the notion that it was NOT her active decision to determine her status was that of Widow, but rather that the Registrar determined that was the word he needed to insert.  ....  Of course, it is also possible that the words were inserted AFTER they had signed WTE's register....  To me, it is important to remember that in those times, a female with children was certainly not considered a spinster !

There was obviously some kind of impediment to delaying the formalising of their marriage, but that does not reflect poorly on them, rather it reflects poorly on the then system, which by the mid 1860s was being amended throughout the then British Empire, including the other Australian Colonies.  NSW was perhaps the last to formally legislate the changes, as it waited until the NSW Chief Justice retired from the Bench before he was then able to dedicate the time to the drafting of the NSW Divorce laws, regulations etc.   

Cheers,  JM

The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
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