South African Norvals

[mogulza]

The South African branch of the Norval family

Three brothers, Archibald, John (Snr) and William together with John's son, John (Jnr) arrived in Capetown from Scotland aboard the "Brilliant" in June 1817 as part of a group of aritisans bought to South Africa by Benjamin Moodie. Archibald and John (Snr) were brush and combmakers. 

Archibald and John Jnr married in South Africa and it is believed that John Snr may have returned to Scotland.  William may also have returned to Scotland or subsequently gone onto Australia.

Various Norval genealogists have their own theories on the parentage of the three brothers but no one is able to provide documentary proof

1. It is hypothesized that John Snr may be the same John Norval, husband of Janet Foyar, and child of John Norval and Charlotte Watson.  Does anyone have any information that may prove or disprove this theory?

2. It is hypothesized that Archibald Norval may be the same Archibald Norval who married Christian Blackstock.  Does anyone have any information that may prove or disprove this theory?

Anyone with information that they beleive might help in determining the Scottish ascendancy of the 3 brothers would be appreciated

Regards
Mike Lamusse

[apanderson]

Hello Mike - welsome to Rootschat! 

Do you have any dates for births, marriages etc? Or any indication of where in Scotland these Norvals came from?

Have you checked on the IGI (https://familysearch.org/) to see if you can match anything up?

Anne

[mogulza]

Hi Anne,

I sure have ... been researching this for 20 years.  IGI, Scotalnd's People, other genealogists.  We have only found possible matches never any physical proof that the John's or Archibald's found were one of the SA brothers.

The difficulty is that SA historians simply recorded 3 brothers and one son with no mention of age, where they came from in Scotland or their parentage.  We believe John Jnr was born between 1795 (based on details recorded on his death certificate) and 1799 (possible IGI matches).  This would make John Snr's year of birth around 1770, but could be anything from 1750 to 1780.  Hence we can also assume that John's brother's Archibald and William were born around that time as well.

We also assume that they came from Glasgow ... because the original name for the pont built by John Jnr's son, James, across the Orange River in the late 1800's was "Glasgow Pont" ... eventually renamed to Norvalspont.  The pont and nearby rail bridge across the river was a strategic point during the Anglo Boer War.

John Snr - "Their was no demand for their particular trade of comb-making and a despondent John Norval made arrangements to return to Scotland but missed his boat while visiting in Wynberg"  We believe he may have taken another ship at a later date.  There are no death records for John in South Africa.

Archibald - Opened a comb-maker's shop at 17 Wale St., Cape Town before moving to the Eastern Cape where he married in 1824 and went on to have 8 children.  He became Gaoler in Somerset East.  In 1832 he wrote a letter to the Governor of the Cape, Sir Lowry Cole, requesting a grant of land in Somerset East.  In this letter he mentions that his trade was a "mason".  He also mentions serving in the 74th Highlanders under Wellington at Toulouse.  It is recorded that the 74th were stationed at Toulouse in 1814.  If we guess that Archibald may have been about 20-30 years of age while at Toulouse, that would put his date of birth at around 1780-90.  There are no death records for Archibald.

William - Not much is known about William and we suspect that he may have returned to Scotland or gone on to Australia. There are no death records for William.

John Jnr - John moved to Graaff Reinet and started a hat factory. After marrying in 1831, he moved to Colesberg in 1834 and continued the manufacture of his popular broad-brimmed hats for which Colesberg became famous. In 1837 he was appointed "pound-master and veldkornet". Owned the farm, Fosseyfontein, in the Orange Free State. In 1861 he was one of the shareholders in Colesberg's first bank which in 1863 amalgamated with the Standard Bank.  His son James built and ran the pont in the town now known as Norvalspont.

Regards
Mike

[ev]

Hi ,

Probably seen this already -
The freeCEN website has a William Norval age 50(age rounded down?) combmaker born Midlothian
in the 1841 Census

ev

[Sharon01]

Hi,

Have you seen the documents in the Wills & Testaments on SP for a William Norval (wife Rachel Fraser) of Glasgow, brushmaker. The dates are between 1821 & 1823 for William & 1833 for Rachel.
Could be some connection to your family.

Sharon

[Flattybasher9]

John Norval and Janet Foyar married in 1798 in Glasgow. I take it that you have read the entry from SP, which may have shown very little additional information.
SP is showing 59 male "Norval" births for Scotland between 1740 and 1817. Have you looked at the forenames of these, in connection with the parentages recorded, and crossmatched them with the three names, William, Archibald and John. (It's only 3 credits)
There are 9 Johns, 2 Archibalds and 6 Williams. You may get a family match.

Regards

Malky

[mogulza]

Thanks for the responses guys

@sharan and @ev - the problem with these William entries is that until I known who the parents are ... especially of the South African William, I am unable to make any connection.

@malky - once again ... until I known who the parents of the South African William, I am unable to make any connection.  John and Janet Foyar were indeed married in 1798.  They then went on to have children through till 1808.  Our thinking is that it is a possibility that we are talking about the same John as the South African John Snr, but ....

1. Does anyone have definitive proof that they had a son called John. 
2. Why would John (Snr) have left his wife Janet in Scotland with the younger kids?
3. Did Janet die before 1817?  When exactly?
4. Is their any rerod of John Snr's death in Scotland?

Regards
Mike

[Peter James Norval Lloyd]

Hi I am new to this site.
I believe that John Norval and Janet Foyar are my Ancestors ie. Grandparents some 5 generations ago.
As I understand it John Norval was born 10th May 1766 in Govan Lanarkshire and he married Janet Foyar born circa 1781 in Campsie Stirlingshire. They were married on 23rd March 1798 in Glasgow.
They had the following children and maybe others:
John Jnr born 22nd May 1799
Henry born 28th Mar 1802
James born 7th Oct 1804
William 1806
Janet born 28th May 1806 ( possibly Williams twin )
Jean born 23rd Sep 1808
John Snr, Janet and sons John Jnr and maybe Henry or William plus 2 of Johns brothers set off for South Africa leaving Leith in Scotland on 14 March 1817 with the Moodie Settlers on a ship called the Brilliant and arrived in Cape Town on 4 June 1817.
James Norval remained in Scotland and married Elizabeth Richards( born 1814 ) on 25th Apr 1834
in Glasgow Lanarkshire. They had various children one of whom was James Richard Norval born in Tradeston Glasgow on 16th Apr 1835.
James in turn married Jessie Gilmour (born in Paisley Renfrewshire Lanarkshire Scotland on 9th Jun 1866) in Walton-On-The-Hill, West Derby Lancashire, England.
James and Jessie had various children one of whom was Jessie Gilmour Norval born in 1769 in West Derby Liverpool.
Jessie in turn married Henry Lloyd (born 1860 in West Derby Liverpool) in 1898 and they had various children including my own Grandfather James Norval Lloyd born 9th Jun 1866 at 47 Scourfield Street West Derby Liverpool
My Grandfather James married Louisa Hirst and they had 2 sons my father Donald Norval and Stanley. Both sons were born in Liverpool.
My father in turn met and married my mother at St Johns church Newport on the Isle of Wight .
I was born at my Grandmother Daisy Bramham's Public House " The Cranbourn Rest " in Newport.
Hope this may be of interest.

Pete

Edit , personal information removed.

[mogulza]

Hi Peter,

I presume you have made a mistake with the date of birth for your grandfather, James Norval Lloyd born 9th Jun 1866 ... presumably 9th Jun 1899

As you have already mentioned, John (Snr) and John (Jnr) came to SA in the 1817.  However no one has been able to provide documentary proof that John (Snr) is the same person as John, husband of Janet Foyar.  Do you perhaps have any documentary have any proof of  this?

By the same token, John (husband of Janet) is shown as the son of John Norval and Charlotte Watson.  This parent child relationship was put forward by Janet Harris (nee Lemon) , but we have no documentary proof of this either.  In other words we have no documentary proof of exactly who were the parents of the 3 brothers (John, Archibald and William) that came to South Africa.

Do you have any documentation one way or another?

Regards
Mike