Did they marry in 2 separate churches on the same day ?

[Ninian]

I have found a marriage for my 4xggrandparents in 2 separate parish registers.  They appear to have married in both Llandanwg and Llanenddwyn on the same day - 30 August 1779 !!  I’m fairly sure that it is the same couple.  Here are the records:

MARRIAGE, Llandanwg
Hugh Griffith of the Parish of Dolgellau Batchelor and Mary Griffith of this Parish Singlewoman were married in Church by License this 30th Day of August in the Year One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy Nine by me Hugh Pryse, Rector.
This Marriage was solemnised between us   Hugh Griffth,  The mark of Mary Griffith
In the Presence of Rees David,  Owen Robert.

MARRIAGE, Llanenddwyn
Hugh Griffith of the Parish of Dolgellau Batchr. and Mary Griffith of this Parish Spinster were married by Banns the 30th Day of August [1779]

Can anyone tell me if this is likely (wild guesses accepted!).  Would they have rushed from one parish to the next to marry?  If so, why? Or could the parish registers be wrong? Is there any significance to one marriage being by license and one by banns?

One other point - Hugh Griffith wrote his name very neatly but he was described in the parish records for the baptism of one of his children as ‘Labourer’.  I suppose he may not have been fully literate, he might only be able to write his name, but would many labourers able to write in the late 1700s and where would he have learned to write?

Any ideas would be much appreciated.

Ninian

[Ninian]

I think my problem has been solved.  I found the information for these 2 marraiges from a findmypast search.  Someone suggested that maybe the records had been misclassified ...... and indeed they had.

I did other searches and found that other couples had got married twice in both Llanenddwyn and Llandanwg!!!

What has happened seems to be that the BT of Llanenddwyn are indeed from Llanenddwyn but the marriage registers which FindMyPast classify as Llandanwg are in fact from Llanenddwyn as well.

I only signed up to FindMyPast this month and have lost a bit of confidence in the site already!

Ninian

[DCB]

I also found this problem, particularly with Llanenddwyn and Llandanwg but also in Caernarfonshire.

A lot of the Caernarfonshire records seem to have been corrected and so perhaps they will sort out the others.

However, I have found some identical records in two different parishes - Trawfynydd and Llanfrothen.

David

[Ninian]

Hi David

That's interesting but I don't know whether it's comforting or not!! ... especially as I have plenty of things to look up in both Traws and Llanfrothen.

I sent a message to FindMyPast support and I wish I had not bothered. Despite explaining to them that both images are clearly of the same date - 30 August and both are from Llanenddwyn (one the BT and the other the parish record) despite one purporting to be for Llandanwg, their reply was:
"The two records for Hugh Griffiths state that one date is the 30th of August the other the 13th. Both original images are separate and distinct."  So I don't think I'm going to get anywhere there.

They confirmed that they have the images for Llandanwg post 1812 but no searches for Llandanwg will come up with anything at all. It's very frustrating if the images are there but just can't be accessed. Especially as they don't give any impression that they are investigating the problem.

I hope you are right and they will sort it eventually

Regards, Ninian 

[DCB]

I think the problem that I experienced may have been resolved. I can't remember which way round it was but you had to search for one of the parishes under the other but now both come up in the results.

In this case I think the problem is that the same rector, Hugh Pryse, is involved with the marriages.

However, I looked at a few others and some under Llanenddwyn say 'of this parish of Llanenddwyn' but if you look at some of those in Llandanwg they also say 'of this parish of Llanenddwyn'.

Have a look at Robert Owen of 1783. The transcripts both say they are of Llanenddwyn and the image for Llandanwg actually says 'of this parish of Llanenddwyn', although the images are different.

I think the Llanfrothen and Trawsfynydd records were in Dolgellau, although I visited the National Library in the same week, and so definitely archived separately. I can't remember if one was BTs and one PRs but I thought that FindMyPast was all the same source.

It would be interesting to look at those in Dolgellau and Aberystwyth to see how Llanenddwyn and Llandanwg are archived. It sounds as though there are no records for Llandanwg or both parishes are treated as one.

A bit of a mystery.

David

[Ninian]

I've looked at Robert Owen and this is exactly the same as for my Hugh Griffith.  The search for Robert and also for Hugh reveal two identical marriages but claim one is Llandanwg and the other Llanenddwyn.  The images are different so you assume that the images are from the parishes they say they are from - but they aren't!!

Hugh Pryse is, as various records in the Llanenddwyn images tell us, the Rector or Llanenddwyn and Llanddwywe (but he is not the rector of Llandanwg).  However, his name crops up constantly on both sets of images.   So both sets of images are from the parish of Llanenddwyn. The ones that purport to be Llandanwg are on printed forms, these are the marriage records of Llanenddwyn parish and the ones not on printed forms and contain bapts, marriages and burials are the Bishops transcripts for Llanenddwyn.

I'm almost certain that all the records in Dolgellau and the NLW are indexed properly - it is very easy to check which parish you are on from the information on the films themselves.  I haven't had any problems with either.  There are definitely marriage records on Llandanwg for this period - I have copies of them from Dolgellau ..... but I can't get these records on any Llandanwg search on FindMyPast .... that is because the Llandanwg records are records from Llanenddwyn!!

Oh dear.  I have told FindMyPast but they don't believe me.  What more can one do??!?

[DCB]

There are definitely some Llandanwg images in there.

I searched on a known relative, Griffith Pryse of 1788, and he only appears as Llandanwg, although it was Llanenddwyn.

I then searched on his wife, Ann(e) Owen, but only in Llandanwg and of the five results, the one from 1788 is incorrect but all of the others are Llandanwg, including a duplicate from 1756, which is under both marriages and banns.

It sounds as though you can search on Llandanwg but it is pot luck as to whether they are there or Llanenddwyn.

David

[Ninian]

I've had another scout around Llandanwg and Llanenddwyn again this evening.

Like you I have found quite a lot of Llandanwg images which are indeed from Llandanwg.  So I agree, Llandanwg records are definitely there.  I went page by page thru some of the sets of images til I got to the beginning or end of the film where I came to the record of the Mormon church filming of the registers. 

e.g. one for Llandanwg (and it really is of Llandanwg) reads:
Microfilmed by The Genealogical Society, Salt Lake City, Utah at :
Meirionnydd Record Office Dolgellau
Operator: Malcolm Twigg
Date Filmed: 15 Nov 2007
Llandanwg Images
Locality of Record : Llandanwg Parish Church
Title of Record: Baptisms, Marriages and Burials
Item : ZPE/8/5 1725 - 1812

These Llandanwg records 1725-1812 seem to be OK, all consecutive years and just as you would see them on film in NLW or Dolgellau.  Also you can search for them in FindMyPast and the images for Llandanwg seem to show up as Llandanwg.

I've found the same info at the end of films of some of the Llanenddwyn and Llanaber records and the bapts for Llandanwg 1902 onwards as well and these also seem to be ok  ...... but there will be other films of all there parishes and I haven't checked them all - very tedious to do.

However,  I'm pretty sure that although the FindMyPast list for Llandanwg says they have records for Llandanwg up to 1912, I don't think they do.  I can't get any images of Llandanwg 1812 - 1902.  I think they have a gap between 1812 and 1902 where the records start again.  Also a big batch of the marriages for Llanenddwyn have been misclassified and come up as Llandanwg.   

Were the ones you checked for Griffith Pryse and Anne Owen marriages that should have been Llanenddwyn but showed up as Llandanwg?  If so, it seems to fit what I think might be happening: where FindMyPast have correct images for Llandanwg they come up as Llandanwg in a search (as they should), but you don't get all the Llandanwg ones (cos of the gaps between 1812-1902) and you get some Llanenddwyn marriages pretending to be Llandanwg.

I think all the incorrect ones I have found are Llandanwg marriages.  Have you found any incorrect images for Llandanwg which are bapts or burials?  It wouldn't be too bad if we could believe that baptisms and burials for Llandanwg were accurate.

[DCB]

It is all very complicated.

The Griffith Pryse marriage is shown in Llandanwg but was in Llanenddwyn. Unlike others, it is not duplicated in Llanenddwyn because there are no records for that year.

You can check this by searching on a common first name in Llanenddwyn with a date range of 1800 +/- 10.
If it doesn't time-out there will be no results. If you then change to Llandanwg, you get those from Llanenddwyn.
I am not sure if this means that the Llandanwg records are missing or if only one of the two churhes was used for marriages.

A cross-check of BTs and PRs might be the answer

I can't find any baptisms at Llandanwg for the period following 1812 but there are marriages and burials

For instance:-
Gwen Ellis buried in Llandanwg 1835. Only some have an abode of Llandanwg
Gwen Jones buried in Landanwg 1855. None has an abode of Llandanwg

Search on a marriage for Gwen Williams in Llandanwg. If the bride's parish is the same as the Place/Parish, then that is where the marriage took place. If not, it was in the bride's parish. In this case, only that for 1825 was in Llandanwg.

The problem is that the FindMyPast search engine is not very good and so you have limited search options and it tends to time-out if too compilcated.

I imagine that they could sort some of it out by cross-checking the bride's parish and the parish of the marriage.

I wonder if other parishes have the same problem?

David