St Martin's, Westminster look up, please

[sugarfizzle]

Can anyone give me the details of the following marriage (from familysearch)?

John Robert Tuthill married Lydia Eleanor Wilson, 31 Oct 1841, Saint Martin In The Fields,Westminster,London

They had at least one child, John Thurston Tuthill, baptised 10 Jan 1843, St Giles in the Fields, abode 2, Wilson Street, father's occupation cabinet maker.

John ended up in Sydney, Australia as a billiard table maker, but I don't know when he went, or if Lydia and John jnr went with him.  He used the name of Stephens in everyday life in Australia, as did his brother who remained in London, William Tuthill/Stephens who was also a billiard table maker.  I have not been able to find John snr in any England census, under the name of Tuthill or Stephens.  His address in October 1841 may or may not give a clue to is whereabouts in 1841 census.

Hoping someone can help me,

Margaret

[Ladyhawk]

Can't see their marriage details on line (An*y)

Do you think this John Tuthill  is related

Western Australia Crew & Passenger Lists 1852 - 1930
John Tuthill Rank: 3rd Officer
Arrival Date: 28 Dec 1885 Port Arrival Albany
Departure Port:    London
Vessel Name:    Valetta

[Ladyhawk]

You may have already have these details but it may help others searching

 looks to be John Tuthill (Junior) on the censuses

1891 RG12; Piece: 127; Folio: 214; Page: 30
122 Chalton St
John Stephens Widow 48 (1843 St Giles) Cabinet Maker
William J 25
Alfred 18

1881 122 Chalton Street
John Stepson 39 Gen Shopkeeper
Martha 34
Willliam 15
Christine 11
Alfred 8

1871 RG10; Piece: 228; Folio: 56; Page: 24
50 Barclay Street
John Stephens 28 St Giles Billiard Table maker
Sarah 39
Charles 12
Jane S 8
Leonora 7
William 5
Malvina 3
Cristina 1

1861 RG 9; Piece: 114; Folio: 44; Page: 21
50 Barclay St
John Stephens lodger S  19 Billiard Table Maker

Same census dittoed as No. 50

Sarah Crespin Widow 29 (Perhaps this i s John's wife from 1871 census)
Dorcas 21
Mary H 8
Jessie E 5
Augusta 4
Charles Crespin 2

Haven't found John Snr. Lydia or John Jnr. on 1851 - have to go out so will take a look later

[sugarfizzle]

Thank you for looking, Ladyhawk.

I should have said, the next 'sighting' of John snr is in Sydney, NSW, 1854, when a son, Henry Archibald Stephens was born and baptised, parents John Robert and Annie Stephens.  Further children born to John and Anne/Annie in Sydney. 

Several online family trees have John Stephens snr born in Devon, c 1835, but this is incorrect.  He was born in London c 1820, baptised 10 Jul 1820, St Giles in the Fields.  These same trees give Annie's surname as Keast, though I'm not sure where that is from, I can't find a marriage in England or Australia.

I have tried to contact the tree holders, with limited success.

Margaret

[sugarfizzle]

Hello again, Ladyhawk.

The census entries you have found are of John Tuthill/Stephens, son of William Tuthill, the one who stayed in England, my 3G grandfather.  The 'corrections' on that well known genealogy site are mine!

Here are father and son in 1851 -

William Stephens, Head, Mar, M, 41, Journeyman Billiard Table Maker, Mddx,
Marylebone
Jane Stephens, Wife, Mar, F, 33, Mddx, St Pancras
Robert Stephens, Son, M, 13, Scholar, Mddx, St Martins (from William's 1st marriage)
John Stephens, Son, M, 9, Scholar, Mddx, St Pancras
Emanuel Stephens, Son, M, 7, Mddx, St Pancras
Ure Stephens, Daug, F, 5, Scholar, Mddx, St Giles
Jane S Stephens, Daug, F, 3, Mddx, St Giles
Mary Stephens, Daug, F, 2, Mddx, St Pancras
Stephen Stephens, Son, M, 14, Errand Boy, Mddx, St Pancras (Stephen Bigmore from Jane's 1st marriage))
George Stephens, Son, M, 7 months, Mddx, St Pancras
Address 66, Barclay Street, St Pancras, Marylebone
HO107/1496 Folio: 986 p34 & 35

Margaret

[Ladyhawk]

Mmm....I can't find John Robert, Lydia or John Thurston Tuthill b1843 (Stephens) on 1851 census 

Nor can I find John Snr. on the 1841 census 

I did find brother William's marriage online
25 Jan 1841
William Tuthill Widower Billiard Table Maker
Address given Crown Street , father named Robert Tuthill Bricklayer
Jane Bigmore Widow father George Barrat Jeweller

could this be Lydia's death

Dec 1890 Shoreditch
Lydia Eleanor Stephens age 66

[sugarfizzle]

Ladyhawk, thanks again for looking for me.

If I found John Stephens/Tuthill in 1841, it would be fantastic, that is why I was hoping someone might have details of the marriage. 

His father, Robert Tuthill, born c 1781, is also missing from 1841 census.  Robert died in Jan 1845, aged 64 at 14, Catherine Street, Strand (where John Thurston had his billiard table establishment).  He died of apoplexy (2 hours), informant of the death was the coroner.  So, he may have been visiting the establishment, rather than staying there as such.

Robert was John Thurston's brother in law.  Robert's wife was probably staying on the south coast with John Thurston's daughter, Ruth Gabriel, her niece.

Margaret

p.s.  I have just had a thought, though it may be unlikely.  What if the two John Tuthill's, born c. 1842, were one and the same?  No birth registration record or baptism found for John, son of William and Jane.  Birth registration and baptism record found for John, son of John and Lydia. 

I'll have to work on this, though it may lead to a dead end.  Unfortunately, William and Jane appear not to have had any of their 12 children baptised, at least one of them was baptised as an adult.

Margaret

[dawnsh]

Hi

St Martins in the Fields is a Westminster parish whose registers have been deposited at the City of Westminster Archives, not the LMA so won't appear on Ancestry.

Westminster Archives are working with Find My Past to put their registers online but it is a work-in-progress and you may have to wait a while for the details to appear online.

I would suggest you contact the City of Westminster Archives for a look up as you have the date and church but they may charge.

http://www.westminster.gov.uk/services/libraries/archives/visitor-information/contact/

If not you may have to purchase the cert from the GRO or wait for one of the few chatters here who can visit on your behalf and do the look-up for you.

Dawn