Author Topic: Grahams of Kilkeel  (Read 33211 times)

Offline crosshands

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Grahams of Kilkeel
« on: Tuesday 19 February 13 18:20 GMT (UK) »
Hi – I am seeking information on the ancestors of John Graham, a boot maker in Kilkeel, Co. Down.  Born 28 Nov 1851, I have found him on the 1901 & 1911 census but can’t locate any ‘record’ of his birth or marriage.  Married Margaret Jane Scott on 28 Sept 1875 at the Mourne Presbyterian, Kilkeel.

These dates come from family anecdotal information along with the following:

John & brother George, were children of John Graham and Margaret Irvine. They married 1837 in Kilkeel and it is assumed they both come from there and must have been born around 1810/20. No records found.

John & brothers William, James, Thomas, were children of James Graham (born possibly c.1795?) and Mary Lindock.  Marriage date and location unknown.  It is said that James was born in Dumbarton, Scotland and came to Ireland as a soldier (81st Foot Regiment of Scotland – but can’t find this outfit)  where he then settled.

Clearly, this is a fairly common name which doesn’t help in finding records but if anyone could assist me in locating evidence to support the family story, I would be forever grateful.

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Grahams of Kilkeel
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 19 February 13 18:50 GMT (UK) »
The marriage is mentioned here with the source CR = civil record:
John GRAHAM Kilkeel married Margaret Jane Scott 28 Sep 1875 at Mourne Presbyterian Church
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/G/GrahamAJ.htm
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Offline kingskerswell

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Re: Grahams of Kilkeel
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 19 February 13 19:09 GMT (UK) »
Hi,
   The fathers of John Graham and Margaret Jane Scott were John Graham and Duncan Scott.

Regards
Stewart, Irwin, Morrison, Haslett, Murrell - Dungiven area Co. Londonderry
Browne, Barrett -Co.Armagh
Neil, Smyth _Co. Antrim

Offline crosshands

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Re: Grahams of Kilkeel
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 20 February 13 09:46 GMT (UK) »
Thanks to you both.  The Ros Davies info is interesting; I guess ordering the cert of marriage for John & Margaret in 1875 wouldn't tell me anymore than we now know?

The reference to a parish record for George bapt 1844 with a wife of Margaret Irvine at the Mourne Presby church suggests that generation is in the same area.  I wonder if the John Graham married to Keown is the same person, first marriage or another family altogether (if John Graham born 1851 had children by 1867 he was a bit young?).

Is the Ros Davies info all that will be available from parish records or could there be more and where would I find it?  If the marriage to Irvine was 1837, would it be CRO or just parish record?

Any more ideas would be gratefully received.  Thanks


Offline aghadowey

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Re: Grahams of Kilkeel
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 20 February 13 10:25 GMT (UK) »
Civil registration of Catholic marriages started in 1864 and from 1845 for non-Catholic marriages so for earlier dates you need to see if church records exist.

See here for details included on marriage certificates-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433042.0.html

Ros Davies' website is a database of material that she has collected.
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Offline iconone

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Re: Grahams of Kilkeel
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 18 July 13 08:33 BST (UK) »
I spend a few days at the PRONI in Belfast last year but didn't get any further than this.   John Graham who married Margaret Scott, had a father called John graham.  I was able to go back two more generations with Margaret Scott.)
I am planning to try the churches in Kilkeel in September to see if I can find more information about my great, great grandfather.  I want to confirm who his mother was. I too found a link to Margaret Irvine on line. My grandmother had a family bible (as a child) which had the generations going back to Scotland (Grahams of Claverhouse) but we haven't been able to find who has that. 
Will post if I find any more leads.

Offline crosshands

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Re: Grahams of Kilkeel
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 18 July 13 10:45 BST (UK) »
Hi - iconone.  Thanks for the post and I would love to have any information you manage to obtain/already hold.  There is a lovely historian in Kilkeel who sent me some old pics of the Bootshop in Greencastle Street where the Graham's lived and where my mother-in-law remembers visiting as a child.  I did contact an elderly relative who still lived in the area (John Graham/Margaret Scott had 10 children - she was the daughter of Thomas Graham, one of their children).

The family story is that the Grahams are descendants of the Earl of Montrose and John Graham had run off with a servant when she became pregnant but this has never been proven (and my mother-in-law was none best pleased when I found out it was unlikely, at least in the near generations) .

Are you willing to let me know where you fit in to the Graham tree/who your gt,gt grandfather is?

Offline iconone

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Re: Grahams of Kilkeel
« Reply #7 on: Friday 19 July 13 06:45 BST (UK) »
Hi

My grandmother was Ivy (Isabella) Graham, daughter of John Graham and Margaret Scott.  She was born 1900 and married Thomas Logan, she died in 1987.  Her parents were married 28/09/1875 at Mourne Presbyterian Church.  I have a copy of this marriage certificate.  His father is referred to as James Graham in one document so I think James and John are interchangeable.  I visited the house on Greencastle street a number of times as a child and meet some of her brothers and Maud.  Maud's son is also trying to research the family but like me got stuck too.  My grandmother only told the story of Earl of Montrose when my mother (as a young child) met a women who worked for the Montrose family and was not only surprised at the likeness of her boss to my mother but that she had the same streak of white hair in the front of her head.  The story I heard was one of differences in belief.  At that time the Montrose family were Anglicans and he had become a non conformist.  No evidence for this. 

I spoke with my Maud's son.  He said John Graham (b 1851) had been a lay preacher in the
Presbyterian church, he left and the baptists wanted him to train to be a pastor with them but he had a big family to support.  He thought they went to both the Baptist church and then the Brethren.
Duncan immigrated to the US (1929 census). He was in the B specials and was beaten badly by the IRA.  I understood this was his reason for leaving Ulster.  I remember he came and stayed with us when I was young.  He married Margaret Trimble and lived in Allegheny, Pittsburg, PA.  His brother, George also lived there for some time - found him 1930 on US census but his wife wasn't there. Both brothers worked in watch repair.  My grandmother said her father, John Graham (b 1851) could repair any watch and taught her his skills.    So although his shop was a shoe shop, he also did watch repair.  Check the US census  1931 Duncan 30 M  - he states his father was from Scotland??, wife Margaret 25, Brother George 40 yrs but he states his father was from NI, daughter Margaret 9months and Brother in law Robert Trimble 23 were all living together.  Both brothers were watch makers, Duncan in a department store and jewellery store.

Ellis Island landing
First Name: George
Last Name: Graham
Ethnicity: British
Last Place of Residence: Kilkeel, Ireland
Date of Arrival: Apr 14, 1913
Age at Arrival: 19 Gender: M Marital Status: S
Ship of Travel: Caledonia
Port of Departure: Londonderry
Manifest Line Number: 0008

William emigrated to New Zealand - He was with the 13th Rifle regiment in Soames. 
Elizabeth (Bessy) became a member of the Plymouth Brethren - I remember they weren't able to eat at the same table as the rest of the family.  Bessy and Walter Balsom lived in Dublin for some time.

We also have a pdf of the Ulster Covenant (sheet 2498) with the signature of William, Thomas and James.  Ellen Jane married twice.  Brought her first husband's ashes on a cruise and met her second husband there.  Lived in London and then Southhampton.  My mother has confirmed this information.

I think that is most of the information I have.  Will post if I can find anything else.  Many records were destroyed in a fire so have to rely on church records.  However, there are so many John and James grahams so if is difficult to know when you are on the right path.

regards,



Offline crosshands

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Re: Grahams of Kilkeel
« Reply #8 on: Friday 19 July 13 10:44 BST (UK) »
Thanks - I will work through the info.  My wife's grandmother was Ellen Jane  - met her a few times and she had a strong Scottish accent which I guess gave rise to the 'family story'.  We know that she went to Canada as a young girl but didn't stay long and then must have become a nurse in WW1 where she met her first 'husband' John Coleman who was in the army.  They didn't actually marry as her was already married but separated.  They had 2 sets of twins - 2 boys Charles Graham & John Percy (Graham went to live in South Africa, and Percy lived in London; both have now died). Then girls Margaret and Ellen Jean - both still very much alive, the latter my mother-in-law.  As you say, John Coleman died and Ellen Jane met Richie (Albert John Richards) who was a waiter on the P&O cruise ships and they married 1951 and lived in several places before ending in Bideford where she died; he went to Bude (born in Tintagel) and lived with his sister before he died.

It's strange that people seem to use their second names in the family - by Maud, I assume you mean Agnes Maud who married Dudley Wallace.  The relative I spoke to who still lived in Kilkeel was Mrs C L Annett.

I have a few old photos which I shall try to attach in next post - good luck in Kilkeel.

David