Author Topic: why marry there?  (Read 2338 times)

Offline jimrobertson24

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why marry there?
« on: Monday 01 April 13 21:10 BST (UK) »
Hello
My gg grand parents appear to have been married at a farm. Neither of them lived there and nobody close to them ever appears on any census related to this farm. Why would they marry there? Is there a chance her father was working there? Why would they not marry in a church?
Jim

Offline djct59

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Re: why marry there?
« Reply #1 on: Monday 01 April 13 21:34 BST (UK) »
You don't give us much to go on here. In the 19th century in rural areas even marriages conducted by a Minister were commonly in houses not in church, and Scotland still had three form of recognised irregular marriage until the passing of the Marriage (Scotland) Act 1939. It's possible therefore that the marriage was by common law declaratio de praesenti, where you announced your marriage in front of two witnesses then went to have it registered

Offline JMStrachan

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Re: why marry there?
« Reply #2 on: Monday 01 April 13 22:39 BST (UK) »
The vast majority of marriages in Scotland did not take place in church. In Scotland you only needed an authorised person to conduct the marriage: it didn't matter where the ceremony took place. So the minister would read the banns in church but then conduct the ceremony wherever the couple wanted. Does the certificate say "by banns according to (whichever) Church of Scotland"? If it does then it is a a church marriage, not an irregular one, but the actual marriage ceremony didn't take place in the church.

If it took place at a farm that was not owned by the family it's most likely that one or both of the couple were working there as farm servants.

As well at farms and crofts, I have ancestors marrying at the manse (minister's house), a school, hotels and even a railway station buffet!
AYRSHIRE - Strachan, McCrae, Haddow, Haggerty, Neilson, Alexander
ABERDEENSHIRE (Cruden and Longside) - Fraser, Hay, Logan, Hutcheon or Hutchison, Sangster
YORKSHIRE (Worsbrough) - Green, Oxley, Firth, Cox, Rock
YORKSHIRE (Royston and Carlton) - Senior, Simpson, Roydhouse, Hattersley

Offline Forfarian

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Re: why marry there?
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 02 April 13 09:09 BST (UK) »
In Scotland you only needed an authorised person to conduct the marriage.

Not so. You didn't need a ceremony at all if you were prepared to risk the wrath of the kirk - you only needed two witnesses to your declaration that you were married to one another.

Obviously if you wanted a religious marriage you had to have a minister or priest, but to make the ceremony valid you still needed the two witnesses.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


Offline JMStrachan

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Re: why marry there?
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 02 April 13 09:47 BST (UK) »
True, but as the 19th century progressed, irregular marriages become less and less frequent. As jimrobertson24 knows the place of the marriage and didn't give a date, I'm assuming he has a post-1855 marriage certificate, which says where the marriage took place. He also says he's found the family in the census so is clearly talking about a period after 1841. The marriage certificate will say how and by who the marriage was conducted, and the most likely is by banns by a kirk minister.
AYRSHIRE - Strachan, McCrae, Haddow, Haggerty, Neilson, Alexander
ABERDEENSHIRE (Cruden and Longside) - Fraser, Hay, Logan, Hutcheon or Hutchison, Sangster
YORKSHIRE (Worsbrough) - Green, Oxley, Firth, Cox, Rock
YORKSHIRE (Royston and Carlton) - Senior, Simpson, Roydhouse, Hattersley

Offline Forfarian

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Re: why marry there?
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 02 April 13 10:57 BST (UK) »
True, but as the 19th century progressed, irregular marriages become less and less frequent. As jimrobertson24 knows the place of the marriage and didn't give a date, I'm assuming he has a post-1855 marriage certificate, which says where the marriage took place. He also says he's found the family in the census so is clearly talking about a period after 1841. The marriage certificate will say how and by who the marriage was conducted, and the most likely is by banns by a kirk minister.

You are right about all that, but it is still not true that "you only needed an authorised person to conduct the marriage". This was never the case before 1939. It would have been perfectly possible for a couple, at any time until 1939, to be legally married by declaration in a farm house or anywhere else they chose. Not that the mode of marriage affects the answer to Jim's original question, of course.

It is perfectly true that a marriage is most likely to be by a minister after banns, but it is definitely not true to say that what the kirk (but not the law) frowned on as 'irregular' died out soon after 1855. If anything, such marriages increased in popularity in the early 20th century, until 1939 when a change in the law provided for non-religious marriages to be performed in a registration office.

I have in my own tree 88 couples who were married by declaration in the presence of witnesses after 1855. Of these only 15 were in the 1800s, 7 between 1900 and 1909,  19 between 1910 and 1919, 19 between 1920 and 1929 and 18 between 1930 and 1939. To put it another way, nearly two-thirds of them were after 1910; and there were more such marriages in each decade after 1910 than there had been in the four and a half decades from 1855 to 1899.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline jimrobertson24

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Re: why marry there?
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 02 April 13 19:37 BST (UK) »
Thank you all
The marriage took place in 1867. It says on the certificate 'after banns according to the ???? Of the established church of Scotland''

The certificate states where the bride and groom live. They both live together around 15 miles away from the wedding location. The groom's parents didn't live at the wedding location. I can only assume the bride's parents lived there.

Offline jimrobertson24

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Re: why marry there?
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 02 April 13 19:38 BST (UK) »
Sorry, just noticed it says that it is signed by the Rev of the parish

Offline JMStrachan

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Re: why marry there?
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 02 April 13 20:14 BST (UK) »
It will be "according to the forms of ...". So a "proper" church marriage then, just not in a church. That's how nearly all my post-1855 Scottish ancestors were married.
AYRSHIRE - Strachan, McCrae, Haddow, Haggerty, Neilson, Alexander
ABERDEENSHIRE (Cruden and Longside) - Fraser, Hay, Logan, Hutcheon or Hutchison, Sangster
YORKSHIRE (Worsbrough) - Green, Oxley, Firth, Cox, Rock
YORKSHIRE (Royston and Carlton) - Senior, Simpson, Roydhouse, Hattersley