Author Topic: Workhouse ; Deal.  (Read 4390 times)

Offline Iain...

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Workhouse ; Deal.
« on: Wednesday 10 April 13 16:32 BST (UK) »
Hi All !   

Thanks to Casalguidi and others, I discovered an amazing 1&2xG family of Canterbury Hawkers, Chair-Bottomers and Organ Grinders..., who, in any life-style comparison could render Oliver Twist’s London a veritable Club Med. 
http://www.machadoink.com/Fortunes%20Passage.htm 
At the time, it’s no wonder why many pure-blood Britons had to buy a mobile-home (four wheels and a horse) to find fresh air and water in order for them to distance themselves from the cholera infected Stour River sewer.

Anyway, Fortune’s Passage and the 1891 census to one side, it’s their 1871 workhouse census at Deal that interests me for the time being. 
In fact, I’m trying to find my 2xG Emma Lees’ parents the hard way, because I seem to be having little “eye-contact” with http://www.gro.gov.uk due to their websites' idiosyncrasies !! (third time still unlucky)     

   Emma Lee abt1838, Bridge, Kent.
   Edward Gimber abt1834, Deal, Kent.
   Married 3 March 1857..., Deal, (St. Andrews) Kent.
(note:  Casalguidi once winked at a “Gypsy Lee” connection here; lol)
Log in to Ancestry before clicking the URL... http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/33342780/person/18949527884

In the 1871 census, we see a list of workhouse lodgers.   Edward, Emma Lee and family are mentioned as being hawker/dealers..., and a little way down the list we find another family of Lees. (no smoke without fire, especially under the same roof)

On my tree, I’ve placed a provisional “unknown Lee” as a father, simply in order to allow for a brother called Thomas Durban Lee abt1841.   
Now, this Thomas Durban Lee can be found in other Ancestry trees full of solicitors, but as one of them is mentioned as going bankrupt, this could have pushed this particular part of the family to a workhouse environment.    But as you will all say time and time again, (and in particular Casalguidi) ..., this is obviously a coincidence !

Nonetheless, if Thomas and Emma are siblings, this’ll provide me with her parents. 

Thanks all !    ...., Iain.  ;)       


McArthur - Campbeltown and Tiree Scotland
Black - Campbeltown Scotland - Rathlin Ireland
MacFarlane - Tiree
Wood / Boorman / Gimber / Lee... KENT
Dennett / Mase / Varrier /  Over... KENT

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Offline casalguidi

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Re: Workhouse ; Deal.
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 10 April 13 18:31 BST (UK) »
Workhouse ??? :o :o ............. it is the "Norfolk Arms Inn" ............. a pub!! 

From the list of "lodgers";

David and Phoebe SIMPSON
Edward and Emma (nee LEE) GIMBER
Thomas and Tilda LEE

Emma and Thomas LEE are most likely siblings and the children of Jethro LEE and Charlotte .......... they are Gypsies/Travellers and there's no deviating away from that ;)

Edward GIMBER married Emma LEE at Deal St Andrew 3 Mar 1857 (from the Ted Wildy Marriage Witness Index for Kent which I can no longer find online)

If you look at the 1861 census for Deal (I assume you have access?), you will see:
John and Patience (nee LEE) PENFOLD
Edward and Emma (nee LEE) GIMBER
David and Phoebe SIMPSON
John and Lily (this should read Liddy/Lydia nee LEE) ROSSITER
William and Elizabeth GIMBER
Thomas and Tilder LEE

Those in bold at least are likely siblings and the children of Jethro LEE and Charlotte.

Casalguidi :)
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline Iain...

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Re: Workhouse ; Deal.
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 11 April 13 04:22 BST (UK) »
Thanks Casalguidi..., you’re always a hive of information.  ;)

I’m pleased for them it was a pub !  Lol !   For me too..., as I couldn’t find very much relating to a workhouse !
http://www.dover-kent.com/Norfolk-Arms-Deal.html

Is this the URL you couldn’t find ?
http://www.kent-opc.org/Parishes/Deal.html

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0NaKsqZJth8J:www.picosearch.com/cgi-bin/ts.pl%3Findex%3D131319%26calln%3D4%26lastq%3D%26doc0%3D0%26query%3DAndrews%26psel%3Dall%26opt%3DANY%26search%3DSearch%2BLibrary+%22emma+lee%22+%22edward+gimber%22&cd=1&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=be


Thomas “Durban” LEE is down on an Ancestry tree of solicitors and this Thomas has a christening as follows: 1841 22 Nov Deal, Kent, England.  Indexing project (batch) number: I00516-4 system origin: England-ODM source film number: 1786328.
But she added “my” 1871 census to her Thomas LEE..., obviously an error ! (Durban being the mother’s name)     Hence the confusion !

Casalguidi..., thanks again for providing me with my 3xG grandpa Jethro.   :)

Have a nice day..., Iain.   
McArthur - Campbeltown and Tiree Scotland
Black - Campbeltown Scotland - Rathlin Ireland
MacFarlane - Tiree
Wood / Boorman / Gimber / Lee... KENT
Dennett / Mase / Varrier /  Over... KENT

Offline AJ100

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Re: Workhouse ; Deal.
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 11 April 13 12:37 BST (UK) »
Hello Iain

Can't be a lot of help but I can confirm some of your findings from the Parish records.

 3/3/1857 Edward GIMBER (20) Labourer of West Street, Deal, son of Thomas GIMBER, Labourer
  married   Emma LEE (19)                      of West Street, Deal, daughter of Jethro LEE, Labourer
                                             Witnesses: Richard FAGG, George LOWNDS
This wedding was at St Andrew's Church, built on the site of the old Workhouse. It was not the Norfolk Arms Inn. Jethro is recorded as Emma's father and Casalguidi has found that Jethro was married to Charlotte.

Edward & Emma had 3 children baptised in Deal, all at St Andrew's and whilst living at 15, West Street.
He was a Labourer.
30/11/1866 Charlotte
  9/7/1868  Betsey
28/6/1871  Edward James

Thomas Durban LEE was baptised 22/11/1841 at St Leonard's son of Robert Paramour & Mary LEE. Robert was a Solicitor living in Middle Street and is not recorded as having any other children baptised in Deal or Walmer. It is possible but not likely that he is connected with Emma.

Regards

AJ

Offline casalguidi

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Re: Workhouse ; Deal.
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 11 April 13 13:14 BST (UK) »
Yes, http://www.genealogybuff.com/misc/ukmarwit/ukwitken1.htm was the source of the marriage thankyou :)

I see AJ has provided details for the marriage of Emma LEE - brilliant :D

Casalguidi :)
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Iain...

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Re: Workhouse ; Deal.
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 11 April 13 15:41 BST (UK) »
AJ..., very kind of you !   Both !   This post has provided me with a lot to build on and certainly tidied up a few of misunderstandings.   Pleased there was a workhouse somewhere along the line !  Lol !
These two, they just can’t seem to stay away from them..., even in the 91 census they’re living in Fortune’s Passage, “next door” to the Old Priest’s Hospital.

Can’t afford it yet but one day I’d like to buy a decent motor-home, “cos I’m sure it’s in the genes.”  Lol !   

Thanks..., both of you !   ..., Iain.   ;)
McArthur - Campbeltown and Tiree Scotland
Black - Campbeltown Scotland - Rathlin Ireland
MacFarlane - Tiree
Wood / Boorman / Gimber / Lee... KENT
Dennett / Mase / Varrier /  Over... KENT

Offline Iain...

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Re: Workhouse ; Deal.
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 14 April 13 13:04 BST (UK) »
Casalguidi, AJ..., Hi !    Just a quick mention that I found the baptism details of Jethro’s son Thomas on http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gypsy/gypsyc.htm 
Lee Thomas, Jethro, Charlotte 15 Oct 1837 Canterbury

25° in the shade here, first time in 12 months..., lol !   Nonetheless, before venturing out, I must look at the other pages because there seems to be some very familiar names there !

Thanks again..., Iain.   ;) 
McArthur - Campbeltown and Tiree Scotland
Black - Campbeltown Scotland - Rathlin Ireland
MacFarlane - Tiree
Wood / Boorman / Gimber / Lee... KENT
Dennett / Mase / Varrier /  Over... KENT

Offline AJ100

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Re: Workhouse ; Deal.
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 14 April 13 14:35 BST (UK) »
Well done for finding that Iain.

There seems to ba another child to Jethro and Emma further up the page. Emma baptised 19 April 1841 at Gilllingham. Hopefully another branch in your family tree.

Kind regards

AJ

Offline hanes teulu

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Re: Workhouse ; Deal.
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 14 April 13 14:47 BST (UK) »
The 1851 Census (ref HO107  1632  861  9) has a Jethro (54) and Charlotte (51) at Lydden.

Dover Express, 2 Jun 1871
ASHFORD - Working a crippled horse
Jethro Lee hawker, of Lydden, unmistakably a member of the gipsy tribe....."
In the item he is described as "old Lee"
S. Wales, Somerset, Devon - Oxenham

Aberavon - Hopkin/s, Jenkins, Thomas
St. Brides/Wick - Jenkins
Llanblethian -  Price
Abergwynfi -  Han(d)ford
Pontardawe -  Lewis.