Farris-Ferris Travellers?

[Roy G]

Hi:  I am having trouble finding John Farris or Ferris (born of John and Rosetta-Rosanna and baptised Salehurst 1876) in the 1881 census.  There is also a small problem in 1891 but fortunately for 1901 and 1911 there are no further dificulties.

Here's what I have.  John's father (a musician born Ashford Kent 1842) married in Salehurst in 1874, but I do not know which of the two ladies on FreeBMD for Ticehurst district was his partner.  I suspect she may have been a gypsy dancer and who used the stage name of Rosanna or Rosetta.  Those are the names given to the mother of John's two children, George 1875 and John 1876 (FreeBMD birth entry for Ticehurst) who were subsequently baptised Salehurst.  George died Salehust 1876, but I have no idea whether John senior's partner died or they just went their separate ways, for she is not with the family in 1891.

Father 1842 and son 1876 Birth places listed as Ashford and Hurst Green, appear to be missing from the 1881 census but reappear as lodgers without a wife / mother in Wareham Dorset in 1891.  I have no idea who they were lodging with, perhaps they were family?  In 1899 John junior marries in Findon and he and his new wife are in Portslade 1901.  From that point onwards, his side of the family history is well documented.

What's missing is: 
Who did John 1842 marry in Salehurst in 1874?
Where were the two John's in 1881?
Does the 1891 say John 1842 was a widower and his occupation?
And are there any sightings of John 1842 previous to, or post 1891?

I anticipate finding them will prove a little more difficult for my suspician is that the family were once performing travellers, and as such, often tried to avoid the rigours of any official registration.  I could not find John 1842's birth on FreeBMD for example and the one from 1840 Ashford/Folkestone, looks to be a false trail for that person was still around when John 1842 appeared in the 1891 Wareham census.

Regards Roy G. 

[omega 1]

Hello Roy

Are these your 2 Johns on the 1891 ?

Lodging at North Bridge,St Martin,Wareham

John,Widower,49,Musician,Ashford,Kent.
John,15,Musician,Hurst Green,Sussex.

Cant find them on 1881

Kind regards

omega

[swebby]

Hi Roy,


Just looked at the marriages you talked about.
James Lawrence appears with Fanny in the 1891 census so that leaves John Farris marrying Phillis Message.

Regards
Sean

[swebby]

What is strange about the marriage is that it looks from Ancestry that they married in Bovingdon, Hertfordshire 22 Aug 1874 and registered the marriage in Sussex? It seems more than coincidental that there is more than one Phillis Message marrying a John Farris in that quarter of 1874.
Fathers names given on the details: George Message and William Farris.

Regards
Sean

[Roy G]

Three responses to write. 
Thanks Omega, yes that's them.
Does the census confirm their relationship to each other, give a full address in North Bridge and say who they are lodging with?

Thanks Sean.  Good deduction. 
You say 1891 census, did you find the wrong couple together on the 1881 as well?  The duplicate marriage entry was news to me (it does not show in Hertfordshire on FreeBMD) so adds another interesting new piece to the puzzle.  Perhaps the bride was from Bovington? And the groom's father's name is a further piece of new info.

Must try the 51-71 censuses to see if a musical John born Ashford 1842 is with a parent called William
Roy G

[omega 1]

Hello Roy

Looking at original,,young John just has an  S beside his name.

They were staying at a Lodging House,several others there.The enumarator had written across them,staying for  night .

piece 1643  folio 45 page 9.

omega

[omega 1]

Back again

The couple running the Lodging House were Thomas & Emma Wellstead.

The address is the one i gave you.

omega

[Roy G]

Only queried the address because 'North Bridge' could have been a sheltered roadside place for travellers, rather than a bricks and mortar establishment.  So no info if senior was a widower either?

'Bovington' and 'Musician' coupled with being missed from censuses has now begun to make me wonder whether John Ferris senior was not a travelling performer at all, but a military bandsman?  Surely the census would say soldier though.   

Using the info you have given, I think I have found John the elder in OLD BRENTFORD in 1901.  The 1901 index shows a musician called John Ferris there, born 1842 in a place called Bucks Kent!!.  Anyone able to do a look up to see if he was with family?      Roy G

[omega 1]

Hello Roy

On the 1871 there is a John Feris,born Ashford ,Kent,aged 28,lodging at a place in Dragon Street,Petersfield ,but he is a Blacksmith.

Piece 1220 folio 65 page 14

omega