Gypsy Route, St Helens-Southport

[denbury]

Hi

Hoping someone can tell me if Thatto Heath has a gypsy connection? I am trying to trace my great-grandparents who were visiting Thatto Heath in 1906 and were described as 'tramping the countryside...last seen heading for Southport'. They were seen at a pub in Rainford, perhaps looking for work?

Was there a known route between St Helens and Southport for travellers?

I don't know my ancestor's surnames, still trying to confirm a gypsy connection.

Thanks

[Sandgrounder1]

How did you find out about them in 1906???  I don't know of any gypsy connection but that's not to say there wasn't one.  Perhaps it might be better to work back from your current family through your grandparents and try to find out your great-grandparents' surnames.  Then you could look at the 1911 census in Lancashire to see if they are on it.

[denbury]

I don't know my grandmother's birth name or where born. She was adopted in 1907. She was told snippets of the story about her parents - no names. Just that at the time they gave her up they were in the area of Rainford/St Helens. I don't have names, only dates and the temporary name of Alice given to her by her first foster parents. She was given a new name by second and final foster parents. Her baptism (1907), done in her adoptive mother's birth parish in Surrey (with new name) gives birth date as 6 July 1905.

It would appear that the parents were visiting Thatto Heath in October 1906, before continuing on to Southport. The husband many have been a cooper. They were described as gypsies, but I don't know if this was just a generalized term because of their no fixed abode status, or whether they were gypsies by birth.

[Sandgrounder1]

Without a date, name or location you are going to struggle to find information.  Have you tried to get the adoption record from 1907?  I think that's your only hope, unless anyone else can suggest something.  Good luck with your search!

[denbury]

I know. I have been digging for info since 1994. I have tried the welfare agency involved in my grandmother's case, but they say they have nothing in their records. If an adoption agency was involved I have no idea which one. There was nothing usual about this adoption. I have tried Guardian Minutes in Prescot and Ormskirk - nothing there.

I have newspaper reports of the case, but there is nothing there to give a clue as to who the birth parents were.

Strange coincidence -  the only other child baptised the same day as my grandmother in the same Surrey hamlet was the child of a gypsy couple, Frank and Britannia Lee. There were only 3 baptisms that month of May 1907.

[Sandgrounder1]

How terrible.  I wonder what your great grandmother thought about her parents when she found out the details?  I'll keep this case in mind and if I think of anything else I'll post again. 

[denbury]

I can only imagine what she thought. I think she felt lucky that she had found a relatively stable new life in London. She found out she was adopted when she was 17. It must have been a head spinner, and then add the circumstances, I can only imagine how she must have felt.

Later in life she was torn between wanting to know who she really was, but also worried what she might find. She had a brother, that's all she was told beside the scant details of her parents.

Thanks for your interest.

[rob g]

Hi. Denbury. I am a romany. And have traced my family bavk to 1600s. There were lots of travellers on the the area you mention. Even in those day they knew if you were a gypsy or not. And as to the baptism in the south. Not all romany folk gave a real name. For many reasons. And if the man was not a gypsy.he would take the womans name. So it can be confusing.  Also we do use other names. As we tend to use the same Christian names. Also not being literate.  Some times anything could be written.  But my family came from staffs. To Liverpool Ormskirk Manchester  and areas. There is I link with gypsy folk in that area.try looking at other family surnames. They give more info on whos marrying into the group. But if you were called a gypsy it was because you generally were. Good luck with your search. ..rob g

[denbury]

Hi Rob

Thanks for your help. I grew up with the story that the parents were gypsies. Newspaper reports described them as 'tramped about the country', the trade of the men - coopers. Or was Cooper their name? I have a detailed newspaper account which even mentions a neighbour noticing that my grandmother, aged 19 months, had been vaccinated 4 times. Yet, no one thought to ask names of the parents.

Couple #1 fostered my grandmother for a few months. I have their names and details etc. They gave her a name, Alice, because they didn't know her birth name.
Couple #2 adopted my grandmother informally (no legal adoption then). They baptised her with a new first name and middle name being the one couple #1 gave her. Have no idea if her forename, Eva, was her real name.