Thomas and Elizabeth are driving me mad!

[louisa maud]

Online

LM

[Niceboytiddles]

31 July 1898
Church in the parish of St Mary Magdalene, Southwark
Groom Thomas Brown, aged 48, widower, labourer of 18 Swan Street, father Thomas Brown (deceased)
Bride Elizabeth Millichope, aged 47, widow of 18 Swan Street, father Thomas Haynes (deceased)
Witnesses: Edward John King and Eliza Davis

So, there we are.

I spoke to my mother in law again about her recollections and she had one additional item to add to previous information.  She mentioned a nephew of Ellen Brown who is the person I am looking for.  I believe his name was Arthur J Brown, and he was born somewhere around the 1890s. I've got some other clues to go on besides his name and a rough age so I will keep digging.

Anyway if this information from the certificate gives you any new leads, please let me know.  I think Elizabeth Flynn (Brown) and Ellen Brown were probably cousins rather than sisters as there is quite a big age difference between them but at some point there must be a common ancestor!

Best wishes, Alison

[Annie65115]

Thanks for this clarification. I really couldn't read Thomas's father's name in the online certificate.

I have gone through all the Thomas son of Thomas's that I can find in the approrpiate areas of London but I have never been able to confirm which (if any) was his family, or to find a first marriage for Thomas, to know who elizabeth's mother was.

I'll let you know if anything else turns up!

[Niceboytiddles]

Hello
I've got a bit more information from a family letter which has just come to light.  This suggests that the family name was originally Bjorn and the grandfather of my husband's grandmother (Ellen Brown) was Norwegian.  Apparently he married a Scot and changed his name to Brown.  He owned a fleet of timber barges.

Going back to your original post I see that you were trying to work out who Elizabeth Brown's mother was.  I have got confused about this as I wonder whether she was in fact Elizabeth Millichope, daughter of William & Elizabeth Millichope as in the 1891 census.  Did her mother Elizabeth later marry Thomas Brown as in 1898 and then take the name Brown by the time it came to 1901?

There is more in the letter but I've not had any luck in verifying any of it yet.  I'm not sure how helpful it will be!

Best wishes, Alison

[Annie65115]

I hadn't really considered the possibility that Elizabeth Millichope was Eliz Brown's mother. Elizabeth Brown named Thomas as her father when she married, and if Mr Millichope was her father I would have thought she'd be more likely to name him, as she was already around 11 years old when Thomas and Elz Millichope married.

The other thing that has made me think that Elizabeth was Thomas's daughter with a different mother is that in the 1901 census, she is shown as Brown with her father and Elizabth nee Millichope. but her (step?)mum's son Richard also lives at the same address and is still shown as Millichope.

Have you found any likely Norwegian candidates for Thomas's father?

[Niceboytiddles]

Hi
Well, I think you are probably right about Elizabeth (the younger) not being a Millichope but being a Brown.  I had overlooked the fact that Thomas Brown was a widower when he married Elizabeth (the elder).  This also makes sense of something written in the letter I mentioned. 

You may be interested in the whole content - here it is:

'Ellen Brown's maternal grandfather came from Norway - name Bjorn.  They owned a fleet of timber barges.  He married a scots girl and changed his name to Brown.  Ellen's father carried on the business and extended south to Surrey docks.  He died of tuberculosis caused no doubt by the seafaring life.  He had three brothers.  One emigrated to Australia (Tweed River, New South Wales).  One to Northern Rhodesia (and became manager of a copper mine) and the other married an Irish girl, (Will Flynn's grandmother). Will Flynn's brother became a manager for Barclay's Bank at Kalgoorie.'

I have edited this a little but left in the original names and spellings.  There is a bit more including a reference to 'Aunt Polly' who also seemed to be called Nancy.  Her children did well according to the letter and one of them had a haulage business called Allens.  Will Flynn's son Brian became an architect.

Does any of this mean anything to you?  Will Flynn was the letter writer's cousin (Betty Steele nee Courtney).

I have found a few people called Bjorn so far but no-one looks suitable.  I'll keep at it!

Best wishes, Alison

 

[Annie65115]

Elizabeth Brown m John Flynn and they did have a son called William b 1910.

William Flynn's grandparents would therefore have been:

Thomas Brown + ? (Elizabeth's parents)

and

Jeremiah Flynn and Ellen ?Looney (John's parents)

William Flynn had 2 brothers, John and Joseph. I think I met both William and Joseph when they were elderly men, but I have no info about John and no memory of anyone in the family mentioning an Australian connection.

I'm trying to be sure how the family would fit together. Ellen's father had 3 brothers and one of those married Willm Flynn's grandmother -- so Ellen and Elizabeth's fathers were brothers, I think? And it would have been Elizabeth's father who married Will Flynn's irish grandmother (coming out in a cold sweat here trying to work this out!)

The 1851 census has Thomas Brown, cooper, married to a Mary from Cork, living in a "cottage on the bank of the millstream" in Rotherhithe; they have a son Thomas age 4 and this family has always been on my shortlist of possibles for "my" Thomas. I've seen an ancestry tree that has this one too. But I haven't been able to prove or disprove this.

All this though is supposing that we have the right combo of Thomas, Elizabeth, William, Flynn and Brown and none of those names is terriblly distinctive! Do you have any more info about the Flynns that might narrow it down?

[Annie65115]

I've just reread your message above and realise we're moving into therealm of almost discussing living people so have responded via PM --

[Niceboytiddles]

Hi
Yes, you are right - best to take this off the public forum.  I've got some addresses and a bit of other info which I have held back but should help with confirming that we are working on the same family.

Best wishes, Alison