Author Topic: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children  (Read 34506 times)

Offline Gilby

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William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« on: Friday 06 September 13 18:03 BST (UK) »
NB:  This relates to families in Antrim, Armagh and Belfast.  Also, some of the information on this thread is from another thread (“Weir Family Belfast”) where some contributors have been very helpful.  I didn’t want to take over that thread though, so I’ve made this one instead.


My great great grandfather was a man called William John Gilbert (1822-1880).  A history of the company of which he was a director says he was one of 7 children born of Stephen Gilbert (c1780-1836) and Anne Jane (possibly Jones).  William John married Ellen Orr Killen and together they apparently had 10 children.

I am fairly certain of the above.  My problem is figuring out exactly who William John’s siblings were.  I’m also a bit confused about his children, as I shall explain in another post.

According to the company history I mentioned, Stephen and Anne Gilbert’s children were “William John, Stephen and 5 others”.  I also have two lists from two different family researchers (I’ve not yet been able to establish if one outdates the other) as follows:

-   A daughter (b c1818)
-   Jonathan (b. c1820)
-   William John (c1822-1880)
-   Margaret Anne (b. c1826)
-   Stephen (c1830-1902)
-   Eliza Jane (b. c1834)

and…

-   Stephen (baptized 14th February 1814 and assumed to have died in 1816)
-   Sarah (baptized 20th March 1816)
-   Eliza Jane (baptized 6th Nov 1819)
-   William John (baptized 15th March 1822 and died 1880)
-   Frances (baptized 30th December 1826)

As you can see there’s a bit of overlap and a bit of contradiction.  I'll go through what I have for each person in the next post.

Offline Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #1 on: Friday 06 September 13 18:03 BST (UK) »
I’ve been able to put together some information about several of these names, but I have a horrible suspicion that I may be mixing two or more different families together (the number of Stephen Gilberts makes life difficult).

[Stephen Gilbert and family were from a village called Aghagallon in south Antrim, next door to the village of Aghalee and near the Armagh towns of Lurgan and Portadown.  ‘Soldierstown’ refers to a church near Aghalee.]

Jonathan – The Jonathan we’re looking for was apparently a doctor.  According to the Lurgan directory there was a Jonathan Gilbert, surgeon and apothecary, working from Church Square/Market Street in 1852, 1856 and 1861.  He appears to be absent in 1840 and 1865.  There is a record of a Jonathan Gilbert (“Lurgan, M.D.) in the Soldierstown church records as having died in 1864 aged 44.  Annoyingly there’s a will of another Jonathan Gilbert (physician) of “Lurgan, County Armagh … who died 26th February 1867 … granted to Eliza Gilbert of Lurgan … widow of said deceased”.  (It may be possible that these two were the same person?  Either way I haven’t found anything to link him with my people.)

Sarah, Frances, Sally?? – I don’t know where the names of Sarah and Frances come from.  I did find a Sally Gilbert, daughter of Stephen Gilbert, who married Robert Gilbert, son of Thomas Gilbert in Aghalee on 21st November 1855 though.  There’s nothing to say her father is the right Stephen though.

William John – I know plenty about this guy. He was born in 1822 and died in 1880.  He married Ellen Orr Killen in 1851 at Ballyeaston church (which is very close to where my family now lives, incidentally).  There’s still the problem of his 10 children but I’ll get on to that later.

Margaret Anne – She was born in about 1818 (not 1826 as above) and died in 1903.  In 1826 she married Meredith Rountree of Rountree Hill, County Armagh.  They emigrated to New Zealand in 1865/66.  There’s plenty of discussion about her and her descendants on another thread on this site, but the only evidence I have to link her to my family is her mention in the will of her brother Stephen Gilbert (presumably she was the only one of his siblings to outlive him).

Eliza Jane – I’ve been given two completely different dates for her DOB – 1819 and 1834.  On the 5th May 1852 an Eliza Jane “daughter of the late Stephen Gilbert”, married James Gilbert, a merchant of Portadown.  So she was either rather young or rather old when she married.  The IGI has a Sarah Gilbert born to James Gilbert and Eliza Jane on 6th August 1858.

Stephen – Now this is the interesting one.  One of my sources thinks he was born in 1814 and died in infancy in 1816 (there is indeed a Stephen Gilbert born to Stephen Gilbert and Ann Jane on 14th February 1814), and another thinks he was born in 1830 and lived till 1902.  It is possible they called the first son Stephen (as was the family custom) and they later called another son by the same name.  Or maybe they were the same person and the birth date of 1830 is completely spurious.  I’ve got plenty of information about a Stephen Gilbert who evidently lived beyond the age of 2.  On 3rd April 1857, in Soldierstown church, Stephen Gilbert of Aghagallon married Sarah Anne, only daughter of the late Mr Edward Bell.  They had a son in 1818 called Edward who died aged 6 in 1864.  The will of Stephen Gilbert says he was the younger brother of William J. Gilbert, apparently - I haven’t seen the full thing, and I can’t read the writing anyway.  In the will he mentions his wife Sarah Ann, sister Margaret Anne Rountree (N.Z.), nieces Annie Price, Minnie Weir, Janie Gilbert, Eleanor Gilbert and Edward Killen (N.Z.).  The residue was to be divided between William, Stephen and Henry Gilbert.  Most of these names match the names I have for William John’s children, thus making it fairly certain that this Stephen, and Margaret Anne, were indeed children of Stephen and Anne Gilbert.

Offline Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #2 on: Friday 06 September 13 18:04 BST (UK) »
Finally I get on to the children of William John Gilbert.  This is relevant to the above discussion thanks to the will of Stephen Gilbert.  Again, I have the two sources.  The first lists Jane McCausland, Eleanor, William/George Young, Edward Killen, Anne Mary, Thomas Stephen and Henry.  My grandfather (son of William Gilbert), who saw this about a decade ago, put a squiggledy line through these names and noted underneath, “completely muddled”.  Rather less helpfully he didn’t correct it, and unfortunately he died in 2010.

I do believe this list of the 10 children is at least 70% accurate:

Edward Killen – Born before 1852 and died in 1890 in Katikati, New Zealand.  He emigrated before 1879 and married Martha Killen Wilson on 22nd December 1881 in Katikati.  They had sons William (Will), John Killen Wilson (Jack) and Edward Du Vivier.

Stephen – Born in about 1852 and died in infancy?

Annie – Born in about 1855?  She had married James Millar Killen by 1879.  She travelled to Victoria, Australia in 1882.  Her husband died in 1928.  She died on 28th June 1934 in Whangarei, New Zealand.

Mary (Minnie) or perhaps Anne Mary (?) – Born in about 1858.  She apparently never married?

William Gilbert – My great grandfather.  He was born in 1862 and died in 1935.  He married first Una Margharita Nixon, and second Evelyn Helen Haig.  In 1901 he became a partner in the same business as his father had been a partner in.

George Young – Born in 1864 and died in 1882.  He was evidently still living at home and his effects were granted to his mother Ellen Orr Gilbert.

Jane McCausland (Jean) – Born in about 1865 and died on 26th July 1908.  Her will says she was of “2 Sandown Park, Knock” which is the same address she gives for her brother William.  However, neither seem to appear in the 1901 census.  She died unmarried and left her effects to her unmarried sister Eleanor, brother William Gilbert (tea merchant, 2 Sandown Park) and Thomas Stephen Gilbert (engineer, 1 Deramore Drive).

Eleanor – Born 27th June 1866 and died 30th August 1930, British Columbia [thanks aghadowey].  As mentioned in Jean’s will she never married.

Thomas Stephen (Stephen) – Born 6th June 1869 and died 19th February 1935.  He was a civil engineer, and by the looks of his mini-bio on the Irish Architectural Archive website he had a pretty successful career.    He married Bethea Adelaide Corry and had 5 children.

Henry (Harry) – Born 27th December 1870 to William John Gilbert and Ellen Orr Killen.  He probably emigrated to Edmonton, Albert, Canada before 1901.  He was buried on 19th December 1955 in Edmonton Cemetary in plot next to “Mary Gilbert” who was buried on 14th May 1913.


The problem is that the will of Stephen Gilbert (d.1902), brother of William John Gilbert, mentions “Annie Price” and “Minnie Weir” as his nieces.  Annie Gilbert married James Millar Killen and therefore became Annie Killen, not Price.  Was Annie Price a niece by another sibling?  Meanwhile the most likely candidate for “Minnie Weir” is a Mary Gilbert who married John Weir in January 1879 (thanks Kingskerswell).  Unfortunately, as pointed out by aghadowey, her father is listed as Richard, not William John.  So was Richard actually a brother of William John, or is Richard actually Robert, the husband of Sally Gilbert who may or may not have been a sister of William John!?

Aaaaah.  Did anyone follow all that?

Offline aghadowey

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #3 on: Friday 06 September 13 18:12 BST (UK) »
Earlier topic- I suggested asking for your posts to be split off from it rather than starting a new topic-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=659821.20

The will of Stephen Gilbert says he was the younger brother of William J. Gilbert, apparently - I haven’t seen the full thing, and I can’t read the writing anyway.
The wording from the Will Book is the entire Will and is perfectly legible. "Probate of the Will of Stephen Gilbert late of Aghagallon County Antrim Farmer who died 27 September 1902 granted at Belfast to William Gilbert Merchant and Jonathan Gilbert Farmer." Nowhere does is say that William J. is Stephen's younger brother, or indeed mention his brother.
See http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!


Offline Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #4 on: Friday 06 September 13 18:15 BST (UK) »
Quote from the Weir thread:

You can use 'report to moderator' to ask for the last bit of this topic to be split into a separate thread (and moved to Ireland General board since there are several counties involved).

Stephen Gilbert (son of Stephen) m.1857 Lurgan district to Sarah Ann Bell (daughter of Edward).
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGCN-NZ3

Stephen (d.1902) Gilbert's Will mentions lots of relatives which should make drawing out a family tree much easier- wife Sarah Ann; sister Margaret Ann Rountree in N.Z.; nieces: Annie Price, Mary Gilbert, Geanie Gilbert, Ealenor Gilbert; nephew Edward Gilbert's sons, N.Z.; nephews: William Gilbert, Stephen Gilbert, Henry Gilbert; executors William Gilbert, merchant, Belfast & Jonathan Gilbert, farmer, Aghagallon.

As the family seem to be Methodist (Stephen's Will mentioned a bequest to Moira Circuit) keep an eye out for other Gilberts who were Methodist.


Are you saying the name in Stephen's will is "Mary Gilbert" and not "Minnie Weir"?  I'm incapable of reading that style of joined up writing and I was going off a note in some research done by a relative.  I shall go to the deciphering part of the forum to see if I can get someone to transcribe the whole will for me.

Offline Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #5 on: Friday 06 September 13 18:19 BST (UK) »
Earlier topic- I suggested asking for your posts to be split off from it rather than starting a new topic-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=659821.20

The will of Stephen Gilbert says he was the younger brother of William J. Gilbert, apparently - I haven’t seen the full thing, and I can’t read the writing anyway.
The wording from the Will Book is the entire Will and is perfectly legible. "Probate of the Will of Stephen Gilbert late of Aghagallon County Antrim Farmer who died 27 September 1902 granted at Belfast to William Gilbert Merchant and Jonathan Gilbert Farmer." Nowhere does is say that William J. is Stephen's younger brother, or indeed mention his brother.
See http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx


Sorry, yes, I looked at that option but I decided it might be rather too complicated.  And I wanted to make sure I had room to explain the situation in a new thread.  And anyway, I can quote your posts from the other thread to here :)

As for the William J thing - that's something else I got out of the information put together by my relative.  I did find the will online but I'm afraid it just looks like a jumbled mess to me.  I shall press ahead with trying to get someone to write it out for me.

Also, I've only just noticed that I can actually see the second page of the will.  I've only been at this for a short while.  Sorry!

Offline aghadowey

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #6 on: Friday 06 September 13 23:49 BST (UK) »
Are you saying the name in Stephen's will is "Mary Gilbert" and not "Minnie Weir"?  I'm incapable of reading that style of joined up writing and I was going off a note in some research done by a relative.  I shall go to the deciphering part of the forum to see if I can get someone to transcribe the whole will for me.

Mary Gilbert is mentioned in Stephen's Will. Minnie Weir is mentioned earlier in the document.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 07 September 13 18:35 BST (UK) »
Aha, thanks for pointing that out.  That explains that problem.  And thanks again to Gardner who transcribed the whole will out for me.  I still need to figure out who Annie Price and Minnie Weir were.  And if I can find evidence of Annie Killen (dau. of W.J. Gilbert) having died before 1902 it would explain why she isn't on the will (and convince me that she isn't the same person as Annie Price).

Here's the bit from the will with names (after he talks about his wife):

"...to my sister Margaret Ann Rountree New Zeland $50 pounds if alive, if dead to be divided in equal shares between her living children. I leave to Annie Price my niece $100 if alive, if dead to be divided in equal shares between her living children. I leave to my niece Minnie Weir $100 if alive, if dead to be divided in equal shares between her living children. I leave to my niece Mary Gilbert $50 pounds, to my niece Geanie Gilbert $50 pounds and to my niece Ealenor Gilbert $50 pounds, and to my nephew Edward Gilbert's sons, New Zeland $50 pounds to be divided in equal shares between them. I leave to Sarah Brankin $10 pounds, a Bed and Bedg. I leave $50 to be invested, the interest of it to assist in paying the minister for time being on the Moira Circuit. I leave to Thomas Tow $10 pounds if alive and on the farm at time of sale. I leave to be sold my shares in the Colonial & United States Mortgage Co Ltd as soon as it is possible to do so whatever the amount may be. I leave it to be kept in hand to meet defieconciss. The above Legacies to be paid free of duty. I leave the Residue to be divided in equal shares between my nephews William Gilbert, Stephen Gilbert, and Henry Gilbert."

I'm assuming that "Geanie Gilbert" is the same person as Jean/Jane Gilbert, especially since she is mentioned in between two sisters.  I'm also assuming that Sarah Brankin was a servant and Thomas Tow was a farmhand.





Offline Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 07 September 13 18:43 BST (UK) »
Here's a post by aghadowey on the other thread:

William John Gilbert died 1880 (father- Stephen) m.(1851) Ellen Catherine Killen died after 1880 (father- Edward).
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGCQ-WLL

Children of William John Gilbert & Ellen Orr Killen-
Jane McCausland Gilbert (c1860-1908)
     “Probate of the Will of Jane McCausland Gilbert late of 2 Sandown park Knock Belfast Spinster who died 26 July 1908 at Portstewart County Londonderry granted at Belfast to William Gilbert Merchant and Thomas Stephen Gilbert Civil Engineer.”
Ellenor/Eleanor (1866) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FR4Q-CFP
     1911- www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Victoria__part_of_/Irwin_Avenue/230849
     Died 1930 Canada- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FLG6-7LN
     “Gilbert Eleanor of Landsdown Road Uplands Victoria British Columbia Canada spinster died 30 August 1930 Probate Belfast 5 May to Thomas Young Ekin seed merchant. Effects £450.”
(male) Gilbert (1869) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPDV-FRD
Henry Gilbert (1870) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPR4-GFX
     1901- Henry Gilbert (30), sisters Jane M (41) & Eleanor (33), niece Eleanor Mary (5)
     www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Carrickfergus_Rural/West_Division/992260

Online family tree (with mistakes) gives details on the family, including Mary/Minnie born c1858.

There's a lot of juicy information in there that I am working my way through.  Thanks :)