Author Topic: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children  (Read 34507 times)

Offline Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 26 October 14 08:45 GMT (UK) »
Hello.  Thanks for posting. 

I think at some point I wondered whether Sarah Frances might have been a ggg/g aunt.  Since then a lot of research has been done, largely by a researcher hired by a cousin.  I now have the following for her family, which matches what you have, and possibly adds a bit:

John GILBERT m. Sarah DOUGLAS
- Anne b. c1830/1835?
- Henry b. c1831
- George b. c1832
- Simpson b. c1836, d. 12 Dec 1922
- John b. c1837, d. 10 Aug 1873, m. Anna Elizabeth CORDUKES (c1846-1926):
  • Jane b. 11 Apr 1870
  • George Douglas b. 15 May 1871, d. 26 Sep 1951, m. Agnes NEIL and had issue
  • Jonathan Cordukes b. c1873, d. 13 Jan 1926
- Mary b. c1840
- Sarah Frances b. c Aug 1844, m. John Earls RUTHERFORD:
  • Ellen Davis b. 2 Apr 1874
  • Anna Mary b. 8 Jun 1875, m. Frederick T BECKER and had issue
  • John Gilbert b. 30 Oct 1876, m. Mabel H
  • Mary Douglas b. 31 Jan 1878, m. Warren JAMES and had issue
  • Robert, b. 13 Jan 1879
- George Douglas, b. c1848, d. 25 Mar 1911, m. Helena HARPUR (c1852-1889):
  • Charles, b. c1873 in Wales, d. 19 Oct 1921, m. Agnes CRAIG and had issue
  • Percival, b. 7 Feb 1879
  • Janetta, b. 29 Mar 1880, m. William Williamson SKILLEN
  • Frederick, b. c1882
  • Kathleen, b. c1887
- Harriet Rebecca, b. c1850

Offline Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #19 on: Sunday 26 October 14 09:12 GMT (UK) »
Are John Gilbert and Sarah Douglas ancestors of yours Jennigal?

I'd be very interested if you can figure out who John's father was.  Their branch is one we still haven't been able to attach to the wider Gilbert family tree of the Lurgan area.

The Gilbert DNA is now well established (three tests) and we match the "Matthew Gilbert of New Haven" group (http://www.janegilbert.org/gilbertdna/).  If you knew any male Gilbert descendants of John Gilbert and Sarah Douglas they would hopefully match.

As far as we can tell the Gilberts arrived in Lurgan in the late 1600s and they were Quackers.  The researcher I mentioned has put together a 'best guess' tree for these early Gilberts from mentions in the Quaker records, and later in parish registers.  Unfortunately there is a crucial gap in the records which means we're unable to join the tree all the way up to the top.

Jonathan Gilbert (d. 1713) m. Ann ? (d. c1743)
- Jonathan (d. 1747), had issue:
  • Henry, b. 1711, probably had a son called John
  • Jonathan, b. 1714
  • Elizabeth, b. 1716
  • Anne, b. 1718
  • Hanna, b. 1721
  • Richard, b. 1722, d. Jul 1722
  • Thomas, b. 1723
  • Sarah, b. 1726
  • William, b. 1727
  • Mary, b. 1730
  • Grace, b. 1735
- Mary, m. George WHITESIDE on 16 Dec 1699
- Sarah
- Anne, m. John CROOK on 4 May 1702, he died c1709
- Hannah, m. Morgan WILSON on 15 May 1717
- Thomas, d. 1754, m. Mary who died Dec 1742
- Stephen, d. Dec 1737, had issue:
  • Jane, b. 1709
  • Elizabeth, b. 1711, d. Jul 1713
  • Elizabeth, b. 1713
  • Sarah, b.1716
  • Jonathan, b. 1718, d. bef. 1723
  • Stephen, b. 1721, d. 1723
  • Jonathan, b. 1723, probably had a son called John and a daughter called Frances
  • Hanna, b. 1725



Offline Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #20 on: Sunday 26 October 14 10:16 GMT (UK) »
You had a couple of marriages in there I don't have.

I had seen the marriage of Anne Gilbert, daughter of John Gilbert to William Wentworth Paul.  But because John, Jonathan and Stephen are such common names in this family, I wasn't sure enough to say this was Anne, daughter of John G and Sarah Douglas.  Everything seems to fit though, so I think I'll merge them in.

I didn't know of the marriage of Mary Gilbert to George Douglas.  I've looked up the notice in the Belfast Newsletter:

[5 Sep 1872] DOUGLAS-GILBERT: Sep 4, at Holywood Church, by the Rev. W. Rathbone Supple, George Douglas, to Mary, second daughter of the late John Gilbert, both of Lurgan.

Presumably they were cousins?

Offline jennigal923

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 26 October 14 14:25 GMT (UK) »
Hi

I don't have John Gilberts father :( was hoping you did ... Shankill church has still got its records so perhaps a search there would help? Did your researcher check those records?

Check the wills of Mary Falloon, John & Robert Douglas at PRONI and you will see the Gilbert Family named there (Lurgan).

Will write more later, gotta run. I haven't proved a link to this Douglas family but it is highly likely that we are related. I have three family graves buried right next to this family at old Shankill cemetery, we share common names and a picture of a Ann Douglas in this family bears as stricking resemblance to a gggg Aunt of the same generation. My Douglas line traces back at least to 1740's and certainly further back. We've a DNA match with another Douglas line who's connection is perhaps one generation back from this time, or us the brother of my x5 g grandfather. Quite possible that Ann Douglas is a link then as well .

 Jenni


Offline Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #22 on: Monday 27 October 14 19:59 GMT (UK) »
Yes, the researcher did look through those parish registers.  There is apparently a gap between about 1750 and 1780 where no Gilbert’s are mentioned – perhaps they went to a different church for a while.  Your John should be after that though. 

However, I do have some possible good news.  A few hours after your post I was forwarded an email from another person researching the Gilbert/Douglas family.  I emailed him just before this post, so I don’t yet know whether you’re in cahoots with each other or this is a fluke coincidence.

His ancestor was Anne Gilbert daughter of Henry Gilbert and Ann Douglas.  Anne (Jr.) apparently had siblings Fanny, John, Mary and Henry.  It is known from a tombstone in Shankill Cemetery that John died on 29th Apr 1872 (presumably this is one you have seen).

The question I suppose is whether that John is definitely your John.  We know your John had died before 5th Sep 1872 (marriage notice of Mary to George Douglas)... so that fits anyway.  Death notice in the Belfast Newsletter:

GILBERT – April 29, John Gilbert, Lurgan, aged 68 years.  His remains will be removed for interment, on to morrow (Wednesday), at twelve o’clock.

I’ll wait to hear back on email.

Offline Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #23 on: Monday 27 October 14 20:09 GMT (UK) »
Which Ann Douglas was it that bears a resemblance to your gggg aunt?  And what was the aunt's name?

Those wills you mentioned were very useful for piecing together the Douglas family.  This is what I have so far - perhaps you can fill in some gaps?

somebody? DOUGLAS had issue:
Mary, d. 1863, m. ? FALLOON
James, d. bef. 1856, had a son called George
George, d. bef. 1856, had issue:
- Robert, b. c1808, d. 1877
- Sarah, m. John GILBERT and had issue (see other post)
- James, d. bef. 1877
- George
- John, b. c1805, d. 1871, m. Arabella ? and had issue:
  • William, b.c1839
  • John, b. c1854
  • Rebecca, b. c1858, d. 1875
  • Arabella, b. c1860
  • Henry
  • Annie
  • Mary
  • George

By the way, when Anne Gilbert, daughter of John Gilbert and Sarah Douglas, married William Wentworth Paul in 1849, the officiating minister was the Rev. Charles Falloon - I wonder if he was a relation of Mary Falloon (nee Douglas)...?

Offline jennigal923

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #24 on: Thursday 30 October 14 05:12 GMT (UK) »
Hi MF

I don't have the name of the Douglas father of Mary, George and James. I also have an unknown son due to mention of three cousins (William Douglas of Kilmore, James Douglas of Lurgan & Jane Douglas who married Thomas Jones) in the wills who don't have a clear connection to either of the named three siblings. We think that the father of these 4 (Mary, George, James and unknown) is either a John, George or James.

The Anne Douglas that I have a picture of is the daughter of the James Douglas who settled in Edinburgh (Lived in a home called Lurgan Place). She resembles my x3 great Aunt Margaret Douglas. You won't have her information as I am yet to find the conclusive verification that ties our families. As I shared before, I am quite certain that this Douglas family is related to mine but I think that the records that would prove our connection would be in the early 1700's (if they exist!). What I really need is a surviving male Douglas from this line who would be willing to submit DNA ... it wouldn't tell us when we connect, but would confirm if we are family. As yet, I have not found a surviving Male Douglas line for this family.

Mary Douglas married John Falloon, brother of Samuel Falloon. I've seen Rev Charles Falloon, but don't know what his relationship would be to John or Samuel.

It is John Douglas's son, George Douglas, who married his cousin Mary Gilbert. John Douglas was married twice, first to Mary Ross and then to Arabella last name unknown. George a son from John's first marriage.

George and Mary Douglas nee Gilbert had two daughters: Sarah Douglas (Birth 01 Jun 1873 in  Lurgan   Death before 1901 in  Lurgan, Armagh, N Ireland ) and Mary Douglas (Birth 09 Oct 1874 in  Lurgan, County Armagh, Ireland   Death before 1901 in  Lurgan, Armagh, N Ireland ). the 1901 & 1911 census has Mary Douglas living on William St. 1911 Census seems to show that her girls had passed away.

Does this help? Do you want more on the Douglas family?

Offline Gilby

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 02 November 14 18:04 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the information.

Do you know why Robert Douglas in his will says "niece Mary Gilbert wife of George Douglas" without referring to George as anephew too?  I suppose it would make sense if George was dead...?

I'm afraid I have no prior knowledge of the Douglas family.  I will be trying to expand the tree and fill in the gaps when I get the chance.  So I'll update you here if I find anything, or if I find any likely leads to living Douglas's.


Offline jennigal923

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Re: William John Gilbert: his siblings and his children
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 02 November 14 23:15 GMT (UK) »
Hi MF

Would you like an invite to my tree for this family ( on ancestry)? That way you will know what I have etc. if you do then inbox me your email address.

Jenni