Whittaker - Fingringhoe & Layer-de-la-Haye, Wade, Cooper & other families

[helvissa]

Oh I'm a wally, of course it can't be the daughter as she's in his will later on!!! 

Thomas & Margaret's marriage could indeed be somewhere in Essex... very true! And good point about them being back in Boxford by 1749.

Interesting about Thomas Rudland - there are a heck of a lot of Rudlands (Rudling/Rudlen/Rudlin) in Fingringhoe, so I don't know if that's a connection as well? (although it's not a particularly rare north-east Essex name).

I am no nearer to knowing anything more about the one Whittaker marriage in Fingringhoe, though:

28 Sep 1762
John Tiffin, sm of Layer de la Haye
Sarah Whittaker, sw. By licence. Witnesses: Thos Cooper junr & Mary Cooper.

Bearing in mind that the witnesses are probably Thomas (1723-1782) and his wife, née Whittaker, it's likely that Sarah Whittaker was Mary's sister, and as she is resident in Fingringhoe, then perhaps she moved from Ramsey to live with the Coopers (and thence, presumably, to Layer-de-la-Haye).

I sent off for the marriage licence allegation and John Tiffin was 30 years old, a farmer, and Sarah was "21 years and upwards" (which tends to mean she was 21!). As this marriage gives us a connection to Layer-de-la-Haye, where my Wade/Cardinal ancestors first appear, perhaps this marriage is the link? That perhaps Edward Wade 1 worked for Tiffin, then found work with the Coopers in Polstead (hence the move) because of the link from John Tiffin through the Whittaker sisters (if such they be) to Thomas Cooper. The Coopers being in Fingringhoe may even be the link which explains why the Wades moved back to Essex from Suffolk.

The thing is that SO MANY people are related to the Wades. It's an astonishing thing - there's a website called The Webrarian - you can follow all (for a few generations) of Edward & Elizabeth's descendants and when I looked at this I was amazed to find how many people in Wivenhoe (where I'm from) that I'm related to. I'm related to my former Guide leader, someone I sang with in the church choir, and a chap called Robert Lewis Barrell (who was friends with my grandad and who my grandma's brother worked for - my grandad hated it when people said he and Robert were related because they were both Barrells, but in fact my grandad and Robert *were* related because they're both descendants of Edward & Elizabeth Wade!). In fact, it turns out that my aforementioned grandma's brother was married to a descendant of the Wades as well! And it's rather astonishing if you think that this has all come about because at someone point, ag lab Edward Wade left Layer, moved to Polstead for a bit, then turned up in Fingringhoe. If he'd gone anywhere else with his family, then I wouldn't be here now, but nor would hundreds of other people. I know that's basically the whole of human history, everything coming down to chance, but it's astonishing to me when I can see it on this scale - from those two people getting married and moving here and there, probably with the help of the Coopers and Tiffins!

And (if I don't sound like I've gone completely mad), I think it's rather fun that your relatives, 250 years ago, hung out with mine, and now here *we* are helping each other. Ahhh, history, ain't it grand?

[helvissa]

But why did they use the middle name Whittaker? Why not Cooper? There aren't any Wades with the middle name of Cooper.

Incidentally - bearing in mind Thomas Cooper of Polstead married Mary Whittaker in Ramsey in 1755, I had a look for Whittakers there. Obviously we have random spellings to contend with (which makes searching for wills online rather a challenge) and we do have a couple of entries for Whitacres in Ramsey - I've made a note of this at home (not currently to hand), but it's around the time of Mary's marriage that (I think) Ann, wife of Whitacre, is buried. But I went back to when Mary and Sarah would've baptised (if baptised not long after birth) and couldn't find any. So they came from somewhere else... but where?

[helvissa]

Oh, and on 21st June 1763, Charles Tiffin, single man of Layer-de-la-Haye, farmer, married Mary Rayner, single woman, in Fingringhoe. Witnesses: Thos Cooper and John Hollis.

As you've seen the will of Thomas Cooper (d. 1771), you'll know who I think this might be! I think this could be his granddaughter (and also of course note that there's a Thomas Cooper witnessing her marriage). (although isn't she still Mary Rayner in that will, rather than someone's wife? Hmmm....)

Edited to add:
I'm just looking at the 1803 will of Charles Tiffin of Colchester, miller. His wife was called Rebecca (I wonder if he is the son of Charles & Mary?) and he mentions his two friends: John Whittaker Cooper of Fingringhoe & Thomas Cooper of Langenhoe..... (the sons of Thomas Cooper & Mary Whittaker). Then again, he mentions two granchildren with the surname Mansfield, so perhaps it's the first Charles Tiffin, and his wife, Mary, died, so he married Rebecca?

I'm having a quick look through Layer de la Haye and Peldon baptisms - no tiffins yet in LDLH but there's a Charles and Sarah Tiffin having children in Peldon in the late 1790s. There's a Charles son of Mary further back.

Quick look in the papers and I've got something in the Ipswich Journal printed by The Colchester Association Against Horse-Stealers, with subscribers' names and residence - we have a Charles Tiffin in LDLH.

Poll book Tiffins:
1734: Jonathan Tiffin of Layer Breton/LDLH/L Marney - freehold in Earls Colne
1763: Charles Tiffen of LDLH, freehold in LDLH.
1764: Wm Tiffin of Abberton, freehold in same place (Abberton being next to Fingringhoe)
1774: Charles Tiffin of LDLH, freehold in LDLH

[smudwhisk]

Yes I'd noticed that Charles Tiffin/Mary Rayner marriage earlier on Friday but thought the same thing regarding Thomas Cooper's Will.  However in light of the witness you would think it was Sarah Cooper's daughter.

There are a few entries in LDLH as I found them earlier:

Mary Tiffin dau of Charles and Mary baptised 20 March 1767
John Tiffin son of Charles and Mary buried 27 Jun 1768

Also

Mary Tiffin buried 13 May 1773 - no other details.

I did wonder if Charles had gone into Colchester, obviously his wife's half brother Thomas Waynman was in there.

I hadn't picked up Charles Tiffin's Will until you mentioned it.

These would appear to probably be the two grandchildren mentioned:

Stockwell Independent Chapel, Colchester
19 April 1790 Mary Ann dau of James and Mary Mansfield of St James baptised
23 Jun 1796 James son of James and Mary Mansfield of St James baptised, born 22 Aug 1791

In light of the daughter baptised in LDLH, does seem possible that Mary Mansfield could be the Mary Tiffin baptised in 1767.  I can't see a marriage on the IGI or Boyds or Freereg.

There is a Mary Mansfield burial 22 Jul 1798 at Colchester St Giles, no other details, but that would appear to be the parish that Charles Tiffin was buried in on 16 Jun 1802.  I can't see James Mansfield junior on the census anywhere and there are several James Mansfield of an age that could be father but nothing obvious.

On another note, were you aware there was a James (I think from memory) Wade who who was in Polstead in the late 1700s at the same time your Edward was?  He was either the parish clerk or rector, I forget which and didn't write it down, but his name appears on the banns entries as he wrote them up.

I think it's definately likely your link to the other families is through the Whitakers, possibly they had no surviving sons which is why the name was used for daughter's children.

[smudwhisk]

Doesn't say which parish, but in the Ipswich Journal dated 31 Oct 1789:

Colchester Oct 30
[Thursday 29 Oct] Mr Mansfield jun, baymaker, was married to Miss Tiffin, both of this place

This would tend to confirm that Mary Rayner must have died in 1773 and Charles remarried, but where I don't know, and that Mary Mansfield nee Tiffin died before her father or she would have got a mention.  What happened to the two children remains to be seen.

[helvissa]

Hello!

I am, again, being daft, because I'd decided to transcribe the LDLH register for FreeREG, and started it yesterday, and the very first entry in the register is Mary, daughter of Charles & Mary Tiffin. Why that didn't go *ping* in my head, even though it's actually written in my transcribing notebook, I don't know. But there we have it, some Tiffins!

And some more Tiffins, in fact, because I went back to Edward & Elizabeth's 1767 marriage (14th January - son William baptised in June), and guess who one of the witnesses is? Charles Tiffin!



But who's the other witness? Is he a Wade too? I wish that surname was easier to read....

Then various Tiffins and Wades popping up in the marriage register:
John Tiffin witnesses a marriage 1769. There's also a marriage in LDLH on 24 Dec 1755 for Joseph Yell and Sary Wade, a widow - wouldn't be surprised if she's Edward's mother. Joseph is a single man, so when we see the 1810 will of Joseph Yell senior of LDLH, dare we assume that Joseph Yell jnr is his son, and therefore possibly Edward's half-brother? (or perhaps that Joseph Yell senr is the son of Joseph & Sary?). I think I might investigate the Yells a little closer.

 There's a Grace Wade in 1775 marrying Robert Hows with Susannah Yell as a witness. 1782, John Wade marries Mary ? and Wm Yell is one of the witnesses. Mary Tiffin witnesses the 1783 marriage of William Wootton and Susannah Segers. 1785, John Wade widower marries Judith Mead, witnesses: James Burton & Grace Hows (poss his sister). Judith Wade witnesses the 1791 marriage of John Bartlett and Mary Wilken. 1810, Mary Tiffin witnesses the marriage Thomas Wolf & Sarah Whiting.

I didn't know about the James Wade in Polstead - I assume this is him mentioned here (from the Cosford database)

Sarah WADE was born in 1786 in Elmsett, Suffolk, England. She was baptised on 20 Dec 1786 in Elmsett, Suffolk, England. She was a Nurse in 1851 in kersey Tye, Kersey, Suffolk, England. She died before 6 Mar 1867 in Polstead, Suffolk, England. She was buried on 6 Mar 1867 in Kersey, Suffolk, England. Her age is entered on the burial record as 80. Parents: James WADE and Susan AYLWORTH.
She was married to William FROST on 6 May 1807 in Whatfield, Suffolk, England. Children were: Maria FROST, Maria FROST, Sarah FROST, Hannah FROST, James FROST, Sarah FROST. (there is a connection with the Frosts in the Marsden tree - Ann Marsden married Samuel Frost of Coggeshall in 1809).

There is a James Wade in Fingringhoe, married to Martha, who have children baptised there in the 1760s and 1770s, and a James Wade pops up in East Donyland in the 1790s. Access to Archives mentions a 1764 will of James Wade of Stoke by Nayland, so I wonder if that's worth looking at? It's not on Discovery, but they do have the 1738 will of Thomas Wade of (drum roll please, it's that place again...) Boxford.

To Colchester - yes, that sounds like it could be the marriage of Mary Tiffin to James Mansfield, and the baptisms at the chapel sound correct - the grandchildren in Charles' will are James & Mary Ann Mansfield. I've sent off for the ESFH Colchester PR CDs - even though I've got a Seax account, it might make things a bit easier!!! I'll look all these people up on them when they arrive.

I've had a look at the Colchester CD covering 1813-51 and I have the following:

18 Jan 1841, Robert Tiffin, hosier and glover (an occupation that the Marsdens were fond of), marries Matilda Cuthbert Smith. Robert is the son of Charles Tiffin, farmer. They have several children in the 1840s and 1850s.

Mansfields in Colchester:

31 Aug 1822, at St Nicholas', by licence: John Nunn, bachelor of St Mary's, Bury St Eds, marries Eliza Wayman Mansfield, spinster and a minor (Note the middle name - this ties us back in with the Waynmans, I would say). Just checked the original register entry and it gives her father's name: James Mansfield. Is this a child of James who married Mary Tiffin? In fact, the vicar has spelt her middle name "Wayman" but she's signed it "Waynman". Thomas Waynman and Mary (Marsden) had at least two children - William b in 1783, and Sarah. It's possible James married Sarah if Mary died, I suppose.

10 Jan 1843, at All Sts, by banns the marriage of Wm Elijah Chaplin, and Mary Waller Mansfield - her father is Samuel Mansfield, bays manufacturer (note the occupation). (Edited to add: she was baptised at Stockwell Street Chapel as well - on 11 Jan 1810. Born 12 Sep 1807).

10 Oct 1820, marriage at St Giles of Samuel Mansfield of Kelvedon to Judith Pain - could be father of Mary Waller Mansfield. One of the witnesses is Bearman May - might be worth mentioning that William Cardinal Wade, son of Edward & Elizabeth, married a Judith Bearman. The Bearmans owned a not insignificant amount of land around Tendring and Beaumont-cum-Moze.

Possibly of most relevance because we can, I would say, fairly confidently identify him - a burial at St Nicholas on 8th Nov 1848 - James Mansfield, aged 83 (so b abt 1765), of St Nicholas. Possibly the husband of Mary Tiffin.

[helvissa]

1841 census, Maidenburgh St in St Nicholas:

James Mansfield, 75, Ind
Sarah, 65, Ind.
Sarah Bunnell? 85,
Mary Poppy, 15, FS.

Oh, and the Mansfields pop up in this book.
"On their first night in Colchester the Taylors [the minister of Stockwell St chapel) stayed with baymaker James Mansfield and his family. The Mansfields were Unitarian non-conformists and assembled a party to welcome the new minister and his family. Ann Taylor was struck by how closely related the company was, almost all being cheerily referred to as 'cousin'." I'm not quite clear what year this was and the digital version is showing pages rather selectively, so I'm going to borrow the book from work on Monday!

The minister was Isaac Taylor, his wife was Ann, and one of their daughters wrote "Twinkle, twinkle, little star." There's a photo of the outside of their house in the Dutch quarter here: http://www.camulos.com/virtual/guideb.htm

Photo of Stockwell Street chapel at the end of this page: http://www.camulos.com/virtual/guidea.htm

Edited to add:
And in fact.... http://freepages.family.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~taylorsofongar/ The Taylors moved to Colchester in 1796.

[smudwhisk]

Hhm, interesting.  I get the impression James Mansfield baymaker may have been older than Mary Tiffin but without the marriage, can't confirm if he was a widower or not.  Can't face trawling through all the Colchester parishes at the moment.

However, there is an 1821 PCC Will of a James Mansfield of Colchester, he mentions his daughter Mary Wright and a Charles Heath and his two granddaughters, daughters of the said Charles Heath.  I then was wondering if he was a widower because the SEAX index entry for James Mansfield senior mentions his son James, baymaker, and "all his grandchildren".  Obviously he could have had other children but this is dated Jan 1789 prior to the marriage.  So could the 1821 James have been Mary Tiffin's husband and he had been married before, hence Charles Heath was husband of a child by his first marriage perhaps?

There is a Robert and Mary Ann Wright having children baptised at the Stockwell Chapel from 1816.  However, Robert would appear to only be a porter according to the Census but I was wondering if perhaps Mary had married against her father's wishes which was why most of his estate went to the children of Charles Heath leaving her family less financially well off.  Wouldn't be the first time that has happened, I've a line in Suffolk that suffered for this reason, or I should say we suspect it was for that reason.  Is there a marriage of a Robert Wright and Mary Mansfield in Colchester before 1816 at all? 

There are some very incorrect trees on ancestry mudling Robert and Mary Wright of Colchester and a William and Mary Wright of Dunmow, as a son of the latter went to Australia but various people have attached documents and the wife's maiden name to the Colchester family.   Typical ancestry really.  I suspect the Stockwell Chapel wife could be Mary Mansfield but need to confirm how many Robert and Mary Wright marriages there are around that time.

As to James Wade of Polstead, no I have the parish registers on microfiche and was looking at them yesterday and noticed the name against various banns entries.  Can't though remember whether it said parish clerk or rector.  If it was parish clerk, perhaps he's related to your Edward or just a coincidence?!

Interesting that Charles Tiffin witnessed your ancestor's marriage, I wouldn't have thought if Edward just worked for one of the families he would do that somehow but who knows.  It's quite possible Edward Wade was related to one of them.  Some of the descendants of Ann Holbrow nee Cooper, daughter of Thomas and Margaret, went from probably being reasonably well off to illiterate labourers in a couple of generations so anything is possible.

[smudwhisk]

1812 Poll Book for Colchester lists James Mansfield senior, baymaker, James Mansfield junior, miller (of London written afterwards) and Samuel Mansfield, baymaker.  I suppose Samuel could be his son from a first marriage, or perhaps a younger brother, but he doesn't appear to get a mention in the 1821 James Mansfield Will, assuming that is the correct James of course.  As Charles Tiffin was a miller, perhaps his grandson went into the same profession, although I can't track him after 1812 but he could have died young in London.

Edit - Mind you there is a James Mansfield in the 1835 Poll Book with Samuel, no profession and no junr/senr, so perhaps the 1821 Will is wrong person?  Just a coincidence there is a Robert and Mary Wright using Stockwell Chapel, but of course could be a totally different couple as no maiden name given on the entries.