Author Topic: Which part of the coat of arms stays the same in the same family  (Read 6793 times)

Offline marymog

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Which part of the coat of arms stays the same in the same family
« on: Sunday 06 October 13 01:16 BST (UK) »
good day

I am researching a certain family name, and they have a good few listings in the old books about coats of arms. These arms first showed up In the time of Edward III.(1312-1377), according to an old book, and each listing in the general armoury gives the same shield, but with different bits and bobs attached, like crescents, and a different motto here and there. Does the same shield each time, mean the same ancestors, or would it just mean the same name??(its an uncommon name)

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Which part of the coat of arms stays the same in the same family
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 06 October 13 08:42 BST (UK) »
The heraldic device (in England from the 17th century) consists of —
(a)   the arms i.e. the shield and the devices upon it;
(b)   the helmet;
(c)   the lambrequin or mantling;
(d)   the torse or wreath;
(e)   the crest;
(f)   the motto.
Prior to the 17th century achievements did not necessarily contain a crest or a motto.

In addition the following may also be possessed—
(g)   supporters;
(h)   a compartment;
(i)   a cri-de-guerre;
(j)   a standard;
(k)   a badge;
(l)   an augmentation.
Plus various other indicators of a knight’s order.

The shape of the shield is down to the wearer.
The helmet depends on the status of the wearer
There is no ownership or prior claim to any particular motto and it may be dropped or changed at pleasure.
Supporters are granted knights and peers for life or with hereditary limitation.

In addition it should be noted despite what many may claim marks of cadency have never been required in English heraldry though labels and other differencing was often used.
Cheers
Guy
P.S. With regard to the “ownership” of an achievement it falls roughly halfway between being personal and being territorial or “belonging to the land”.
This being due to the way grants of arms originated because a family owned land.
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.

Offline marymog

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Re: Which part of the coat of arms stays the same in the same family
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 06 October 13 10:37 BST (UK) »
Hi Guy

Thanks for your reply, but I still don't understand, I have googled myself silly on this subject. I just would like to ascertain why two families, one living in Scotland (the ancestor escaped there, fought with Robert bruce and received lands up there as reward(according to their family legend) and one family from Suffolk being knighted once or twice back in history, lastly by Charles 11, would use the exact same shield, but with different things added around it.

tks Mary


Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Which part of the coat of arms stays the same in the same family
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 06 October 13 10:49 BST (UK) »
Hi Guy

Thanks for your reply, but I still don't understand, I have googled myself silly on this subject. I just would like to ascertain why two families, one living in Scotland (the ancestor escaped there, fought with Robert bruce and received lands up there as reward(according to their family legend) and one family from Suffolk being knighted once or twice back in history, lastly by Charles 11, would use the exact same shield, but with different things added around it.

tks Mary

You may have answered your own question.  Arms in Scotland and arms in England are controlled by completely seperate bodies under different rules.  There is thus nothing to stop the same shield being used on both sides of the border.  The family that fled north was probably granted the "family" arms in Scotland.
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline Old Bristolian

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Re: Which part of the coat of arms stays the same in the same family
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 06 October 13 10:51 BST (UK) »
These marks are the differencing mentioned by Guy. They are often marks of cadency ie. given to younger sons (& eldest son whilst the father is still alive). They would normally then pass down the line of the respective son. It may be assumed there is a common ancestor with the original up differenced arms

Steve
Bumstead - London, Suffolk
Plant, Woolnough, Wase, Suffolk
Flexney, Godfrey, Burson, Hobby -  Oxfordshire
Street, Mitchell - Gloucestershire
Horwood, Heale Drew - Bristol
Gibbs, Gait, Noyes, Peters, Padfield, Board, York, Rogers, Horler, Heale, Emery, Clavey, Mogg, - Somerset
Fook, Snell - Devon
M(a)cDonald, Yuell, Gollan, McKenzie - Rosshire
McLennan, Mackintosh - Inverness
Williams, Jones - Angelsey & Caernarvon
Campbell, McMartin, McLellan, McKercher, Perthshire

Offline marymog

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Re: Which part of the coat of arms stays the same in the same family
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 06 October 13 11:40 BST (UK) »
Hi Guy

Thanks for your reply, but I still don't understand, I have googled myself silly on this subject. I just would like to ascertain why two families, one living in Scotland (the ancestor escaped there, fought with Robert bruce and received lands up there as reward(according to their family legend) and one family from Suffolk being knighted once or twice back in history, lastly by Charles 11, would use the exact same shield, but with different things added around it.

tks Mary

You may have answered your own question.  Arms in Scotland and arms in England are controlled by completely seperate bodies under different rules.  There is thus nothing to stop the same shield being used on both sides of the border.  The family that fled north was probably granted the "family" arms in Scotland.

Thanks Edlin

If somebody in Scotland applied for a coat of arms, and used the same shield, as that one in England, then would that mean that in Scotland he could just pick any old shield, or would he have to have proof of ancestry to the original one.

you may find my questions a bit dumb(sorry), but I am very new to this, and all the different terms confuse me, try as I may to understand them :-[

tks mary

Offline marymog

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Re: Which part of the coat of arms stays the same in the same family
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 06 October 13 11:43 BST (UK) »
These marks are the differencing mentioned by Guy. They are often marks of cadency ie. given to younger sons (& eldest son whilst the father is still alive). They would normally then pass down the line of the respective son. It may be assumed there is a common ancestor with the original up differenced arms

Steve

Hi Steve

is differencing "In addition the following may also be possessed" list?

sorry I am not up on all these terms, :-[

mary

Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Which part of the coat of arms stays the same in the same family
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 06 October 13 11:50 BST (UK) »
If somebody in Scotland applied for a coat of arms, and used the same shield, as that one in England, then would that mean that in Scotland he could just pick any old shield, or would he have to have proof of ancestry to the original one.

you may find my questions a bit dumb(sorry), but I am very new to this, and all the different terms confuse me, try as I may to understand them :-[

tks mary

If someone applies for a coat of arms that is not registered as being or having been used by someone else then it will simply be checked as conforming to the rules.  In most cases an English coat of arms will fit the Scottish rules and so this would simply have been treated as a new coat of arms.
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline marymog

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Re: Which part of the coat of arms stays the same in the same family
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 06 October 13 15:10 BST (UK) »
Edlin

So if one of the Scottish family, applied for arms in England, they would have had to have been from the same ancestors as the existing family who held the arms in England.?? is this correct?

I think im understanding it now....thank you for being patient with me

mary