Can you help me solve 250 year old mystery please?

[Liz_in_Sussex]

Hi,

The arms below appear in the Great Hall of the old Archbishop's Palace in Croydon. 

There are several arms in the Hall - some belonging to Archbishop Stafford (died 1452) showing the progression of his career - his inherited arms > Bishop of Bath and Wells > Archbishop of Canterbury.  It is generally thought Stafford contributed most to building or repairing the Hall.  Other Archbishops' arms are there too - Laud, Juxon and Herring, as well as those of Edward the Confessor and Richard Duke of York.

In 1754 a book which detailed just about every inch of the Palace admitted that the origin of these arms was unknown and the mystery has remained.

I have come up with "Fasuend" in the visitation of Cheshire (1656) as bearing the "Gules a Chief Or" (quarters 1 and 4) but have no idea who he was. 

Given that one of Stafford's is painted with his arms on the left and those of the See on the right, and elsewhere or and argent are muddled - perhaps the 2nd / 3rd quarters are in fact partially those of William de Warenne (Earl of Surrey) but I don't know of any link he had to the Palace (apart from it being in Surrey).

We really don't like to be beaten - even if this has baffled people for over 250 years and would really appreciate some help or ideas about who these mystery arms belonged to.

Thank you very much,

Liz   

[MaecW]

Hi Liz,

A good challenge indeed !
I suspect the 1st and 4th quarters may be Harington of Rutland (Gules, a chief Or, a bend Azure).
The bend on both quarters giving the appearance of being a bend across the whole shield.

You don't say whether you've identified the arms in the 2nd & 3rd quarters and I haven't been able to find them as yet. As a long shot they may belong to one of the de Molton or Moton branches,(chequy or and sable) with the chief for difference. Although I haven't yet found a record of this use, Sir James Harington, an Elizabethan lawyer and M.P. (c.1511 – 1592) was the son of John Harington (died 1554) and an Elizabeth Moton. I have no evidence as yet that Elizabeth was armigerous but the possibility is worth exploring.

I am a little rusty on my heraldry. Can somebody confirm that the three sable charges are quatrefoils ?

Maec.   

[Liz_in_Sussex]

 

Hi Maec,

Thanks for replying - we are no further forward (and haven't identified the 2nd / 3rd quarters) but still hopeful of cracking the mystery!

Having looked carefully at the colours on "blown up" images - the chequy could be sable or azure - it isn't clear - but in parts the colour appears the same as that of the bend and in others it has blobs of sable. 

You have given us lots to ponder on and research - thanks again.

Liz

[josey]

I know nothing of heraldry.... but just wondering how many times this has been repainted in the 250 years? This looks freshly painted. Obviously the overall shape & 'markings' will have remained true but could some of the colours have become fudged?

Josey

[Liz_in_Sussex]

  thanks Josey - it is amazing what photoshop can do!  I took the photo with a telephoto lens and then tried to get the colours as close to the original as possible. 

I agree - they do look smart for their age but the Hall was renovated after the Palace had been left in a terrible state in Victorian times - it became a Bleaching Factory!  So much for preservation of our history!  But when the Factory was abandoned and the buildings bought to be used as a School they began to be cared for again ... today we cherish them!

Anyway, the blazon is recorded in an early 18th century "history" of the Palace which is held at Lambeth - the author identifies the other Arms around the Hall but admits he has no idea whose these are.  However, this record has "chequy or and azure" not "chequy or and sable" - the paint when examined very close up, is definitely azure with some sable mixed in.

I have done a little research on the Harington family this evening after Maec's excellent post and think he is definitely on to something - they seemed to be friendly (on and off) with Elizabeth I and she was a regular visitor to the Palace ... watch this space!

Any more ideas very gratefully received!

Thanks very much,

Liz 

[MaecW]

Liz,
I've been digging around a bit more on this and I think that the Harington we are looking for could be of a much earlier generation. The Elizabethan Haringtons you refer to, Sir James and his son Sir John, later Baron Harington, used "sable a fess argent" which seems to have been in their family from at least 1308 when it is recorded at the Dunstable tournament.

There are however, other Haringtons from the Rutland and Leicestershire area who used variations of the "Gules a chief or, a bend azure " with differences, which appear in the Visitations of the early 1600s. This suggests an earlier joint ancestor and a clue may be the church at Glaston where a Hugo de Harington was installed as patron c1220 and the arms "Or, a chief gules, on a bend azure an annulet or" appear in the church, though not directly connected to Hugo.
In the church at Staunton(Stonton) Wyville is the monument of Wm Wyville (d1452) showing his arms impaled with (undifferenced) Harington. So his wife was a Harington of the line we are looking for.

I am wondering if a Harington had something to do with the rebuilding in the mid-1400s  ??

Also : you said you had a mid 18th century description of the arms. Can you please confirm that the blazon of the three charges on the chequy coat describes them as "quatrefoils". ?

Regards

Maec

[Liz_in_Sussex]

Hi Maec,

Thanks for taking such an interest in our little problem!  Since I last posted I have been to Lambeth to confirm what the arms looked like in the 18th century and have also looked more closely at the current painting which suggests a distinct lack of skill!  Also, in Victorian times after the Hall had been used as a bleaching factory two of the arms were not replaced.  I suspect that this was when our rather inept painter re-did the arms and got a bit muddled.  The mystery predates this though as records at Lambeth suggest that when Archbishop Herring was alive (1693-1757) no one knew their origin.  Interestingly his arms were re-painted slightly wrongly in the 19th century.

I also found reference to the Church at Staunton Wyville but couldn't find any link to the Archbishops or our buildings.

Also, the Harringtons - there doesn't seem to be an obvious link to the Palace though it would not be totally surprising given that the family was clearly moving in the correct circles.  I am wondering if the "chequy or and azure" (it seems to be definitely azure not sable)  is in fact from a member of the Howard (Earl of Arundel) family? 

Now for the notes written in 1755 that I found confirmation of at Lambeth Palace Archives. 

The mystery arms are quartered.  1 and 4 are "Gules a chief or, a bend or" and 2 and 3 are "chequy or and azure, a chief or".

There are NO quatrefoils and strangely the chief is or which "heraldically" surely clashes with the or of the chequy - or am I wrong?

The bend is definitely only on 1 and 4 rather than going across the whole arms.

I will keep searching for a Harrington link ...

Thanks very much,

Liz