My mysterious grandfather - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves

[judb]

Hmm, interesting (but probably not significant  ) - the name McQuillan is not mentioned on the image for his 1913 marriage. 

As I said before his mother's name is given as Mary McWilliam (perhaps phonetically recorded for McQuillan) and Ernest is recorded without a second forename in the body of the certificate, and signs as only Ernest HARGRAVES. Both of Olive's forenames are written in by the minister and also in her own signature.  One of the witnesses signs with both of his forenames - but Ernest uses only Ernest .

Ernest is obviously literate so he should have seen that his mother's name was not correct.  However in the excitement of a wedding it would be understandable if he didn't. 

I note also that Francis HARGRAVE (the policeman) had been dead for 11 years and his wife Mary HARGRAVE for about 4 years by 1913.

So again I ask - when did he actually begin to use McQuillan as part of his name?

Judith

[judb]

Francis HARGRAVE is a bit of a shadowy chap as well (at least what can be seen by indexes, TROVE etc)  I do not see a mention of him on TROVE, which is unusual for a country policeman, although perhaps the papers for the area have not yet been digitised.  The probate request for 1934, and subsequent grant of Administration is also unusual - with so many children it would seem that one of them would want their share. Of course, there's lots of reasons why it was not sought until later.

What a pity it's not digitised!

Judith

[Eric Hatfield]

This may be a red herring but my cousin is married to a McIlquham McILQUHAM (pronounced McQuillan) and this is variously been transcribed or spelt wrong. I think it is of Welsh origin.

My goodness Neil, that is an unexpected spelling, I never would have thought of that. I will keep it in mind. Thanks

[Eric Hatfield]

Hmm, interesting (but probably not significant  ) - the name McQuillan is not mentioned on the image for his 1913 marriage. 

As I said before his mother's name is given as Mary McWilliam (perhaps phonetically recorded for McQuillan) and Ernest is recorded without a second forename in the body of the certificate, and signs as only Ernest HARGRAVES. Both of Olive's forenames are written in by the minister and also in her own signature.  One of the witnesses signs with both of his forenames - but Ernest uses only Ernest .

Ernest is obviously literate so he should have seen that his mother's name was not correct.  However in the excitement of a wedding it would be understandable if he didn't. 

I note also that Francis HARGRAVE (the policeman) had been dead for 11 years and his wife Mary HARGRAVE for about 4 years by 1913.

So again I ask - when did he actually begin to use McQuillan as part of his name?

Judith

Thanks Judith. Sorry I gave you a wrong piece of information, I didn't look it up, I just thought I remembered. Yes, he didn't use McQuillan at his first wedding. Here is a summary of everything I have:

• Wedding 1913 - Ernest Hargraves
• Sands Directories, Gunnedah, several entries 1913-1918 - I have seen these but haven't noted if a middle name was given (I will check when I can)
• Birth of first daughter Olive 1915 - I haven't seen this, but daughter given 2nd name of McQuillan
• Attempted enlistment 1916 - Ernest Hargraves
• Birth of second daughter Jean 1916 - I haven't seen this; name not listed on Certificate of Entry in Register of Births, but daughter given 2nd name of McQuillan
• Divorce 1922,23 - entry in online NSW government database - Ernest Hargraves
• Marriage 1924 - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves (mother's name is clearly McQuillan, not McWilliam)
• Birth of third daughter Constance Shirley 1927 - don't know
• Property dispute, 1934 - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves
• Death 1939 - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves
• Weddings of 2 of his 3 daughters - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves

So the earliest I have is 1924, but it would be interesting to see what is on his three daughters' birth certificates, none of which I have. I clearly have a few things I might chase up.

Francis HARGRAVE is a bit of a shadowy chap as well (at least what can be seen by indexes, TROVE etc)  I do not see a mention of him on TROVE, which is unusual for a country policeman, although perhaps the papers for the area have not yet been digitised.  The probate request for 1934, and subsequent grant of Administration is also unusual - with so many children it would seem that one of them would want their share. Of course, there's lots of reasons why it was not sought until later.

I have one TROVE entry for him as a policeman, dated Tuesday November 10th (not sure if that's 1891 or 1896) in Footscray, where he had a somewhat violent time arresting two drunk men.

The family spread out a bit - to Adelaide, Queensland, NSW, country Victoria and South Africa - so it may have been hard to find them, and they appear not to have bothered until later, but I don't know what happened to provoke it then.

Thanks for your interest and ideas, it is bringing to light some areas I may need to look up.

[jorose]

It's possible that Francis was in line to receive some money from another estate (e.g. from a sibling), and the administrators of that estate were the ones looking for relatives in 1934.

[majm]

Here is a summary of everything I have:

• Wedding 1913 - Ernest Hargraves
• Sands Directories, Gunnedah, several entries 1913-1918 - I have seen these but haven't noted if a middle name was given (I will check when I can)
• Birth of first daughter XXXXXX - I haven't seen this, but daughter given 2nd name of McQuillan
• Attempted enlistment 1916 - Ernest Hargraves
• Birth of second daughter XXXXXX 1916 - I haven't seen this; name not listed on Certificate of Entry in Register of Births, but daughter given 2nd name of McQuillan
• Divorce 1922,23 - entry in online NSW government database - Ernest Hargraves

[li]Marriage 1924 - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves (mother's name is clearly McQuillan, not McWilliam)[/li]
[li]Birth of third daughter XXXXXXX - don't know[/li]
[li]Property dispute, 1934 - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves[/li]
[li]Death 1939 - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves[/li]
[li]Weddings of 2 of his 3 daughters - Ernest McQuillan Hargraves[/li]
[/list]
So the earliest I have is 1924, but it would be interesting to see what is on his three daughters' birth certificates, none of which I have. I clearly have a few things I might chase up.

May I please mention that it is a NO NO to identify living people at RChat, so please Can you confirm that the daughters are no longer living?

On the other hand,     you mention you do not have birth certs ....    have you tried those NSW Divorce files you mentioned?     They are obviously earlier than 1924 

Fingers crossed the following will be helpful


http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/court-records/index-to-divorce-case-papers

These case papers can refer to Judicial Separations and not just Divorces.  The case papers can include BDM certs (eg marriage for the couple, birth certs for any children of the marriage), correspondence, witness statements, medical records etc).

A Judical Separation does NOT terminate a marriage.  So, a Judical Separation was OFTEN about custody of the children, and the payment of regular maintenance.     I may be wrong, but on reading the index I think the petitioner was Ernest, and the respondent was Olive.    You can order copies of the case papers from the NSW State Records Office. (link above)     I see Ros has already offered to look these up for you   

The INDEX has two sets of case papers, and the index does NOT ever differentiate between the Judicial Separation and the Divorce case papers….   
.
1922 EdwardHARGRAVES and Olive Blanche HARGRAVES Case papers file #0749
1923 Edward HARGRAVES and Olive Blanche HARGRAVES Case papers file # 1353

The 1924 Marriage  Ernest McQuillan HARGRAVES …. You have a copy of that.   May I please ask for further details from that cert….   For example, what is recorded for the groom’s : occupation, age, place of birth, usual address, father’s occupation.     The NSW BDM ref seems to be 14141. 

Cheers,  JM

[Eric Hatfield]

It's possible that Francis was in line to receive some money from another estate (e.g. from a sibling), and the administrators of that estate were the ones looking for relatives in 1934.

Yes, this may be right. But the family seems to have been a bit "all over the place", so it is hard to predict.

[Eric Hatfield]

May I please mention that it is a NO NO to identify living people at RChat, so please Can you confirm that the daughters are no longer living?

Hi, I'm sorry JM, I didn't know about that. I can confirm that the two older daughters are no longer alive, but I have no way of knowing whether the third is still alive - she would be 86 now, so could be. I only quoted names that appear on many public records, and which I could easily  email to people, does that make any difference?

On the other hand,     you mention you do not have birth certs ....    have you tried those NSW Divorce files you mentioned?     They are obviously earlier than 1924 

I have looked up the divorce papers (1922/23), but I don't think I got the full printout. I didn't think at the time that they were important for my search, but i can see that they might be now.

These case papers can refer to Judicial Separations and not just Divorces.  The case papers can include BDM certs (eg marriage for the couple, birth certs for any children of the marriage), correspondence, witness statements, medical records etc).

A Judical Separation does NOT terminate a marriage.  So, a Judical Separation was OFTEN about custody of the children, and the payment of regular maintenance.     I may be wrong, but on reading the index I think the petitioner was Ernest, and the respondent was Olive.    You can order copies of the case papers from the NSW State Records Office. (link above)     I see Ros has already offered to look these up for you   

The INDEX has two sets of case papers, and the index does NOT ever differentiate between the Judicial Separation and the Divorce case papers….   
.
1922 EdwardHARGRAVES and Olive Blanche HARGRAVES Case papers file #0749
1923 Edward HARGRAVES and Olive Blanche HARGRAVES Case papers file # 1353

My mum told me there were arguments about custody and maintenance. I couldn't understand why there were two separate files, but you have explained why that may be, thanks.

The 1924 Marriage  Ernest McQuillan HARGRAVES …. You have a copy of that.   May I please ask for further details from that cert….   For example, what is recorded for the groom’s : occupation, age, place of birth, usual address, father’s occupation.     The NSW BDM ref seems to be 14141. 

Name: Ernest McQuillan Hargraves
Occupation: Chef
Date: 27 December 1924
Age: 42 (meaning birth in 1882, which is slightly younger than when he first married!)
Usual address: Kensington
Place of birth: Lincoln, England
Father's occupation: Francis Hargraves (deceased), Weaver
Mother: Mary McQuillan

Apart from the couple of years reduction in age, and the insertion of the middle name of McQuillan, this is the same as at his first wedding.

Thanks for your interest.

[majm]

I think it would be best to remove the name of the one born 1927.   It is a NO NO at RChat to identify anyone who may be living.     I have stacks of NSW rellies alive and alert who are born earlier than 1927    they are so very particular about their privacy.

Re the two marriages for Ernest....  how does the signature compare for the groom? 

In the mean time,  I will see if I can find him on my 1913 NSW Electoral Rolls on a CD here.  CD has been misbehaving a tad recently.   I hope it will get its act together on this occasion.   

Don't forget to send a PM to RChatter Ros re the "divorce files" as well as the probate in case Ros can help you when she is next at NSW SRO. 


Cheers,  JM