John Knight and his wives - I'm Confused

[GailB]

I’m confused! I thought I had everything down correctly until I found another marriage earlier today which has now thrown a spanner into the works.

I have John Knight baptised 19 Mar 1780 at Nuneaton, Warwickshire, son of Thomas Knight & Elizabeth. He was buried on 17 Aug 1820 aged 40 and it appears that this is the only John Knight born in the right timeframe in the right place for the confusion below, but I am probably wrong.

What I had was:

On Sunday 15 June, 22 June and 29 June 1800 Banns were read at Nuneaton, Warwickshire for John Knight and Jane Atkins, both of this Parish.

They married on 17 August 1800 at Nuneaton ... John Knight, Silk Weaver of this Parish and Jane Atkins of the same place, Spinster were married by Banns. John Knight MADE HIS MARK as did Jane Atkins. They married in the presence of Samuel Shilton (his mark) and James Wheway ? (Church Warden ?)

There is a baptism for a Jane Atkins on 24 November 1780 at Mancetter which could be her but I cannot find a death or burial for her and cannot find any children baptised to John and Jane Knight.

On Sunday 12 September, 19 September and 26 September 1802 Banns were read at Nuneaton for John Knight and Mary GREEN, both of this Parish.

They married on 13 October 1802 at Nuneaton ... John Knight, WIDOWER, of this Parish and Mary GREEN of the same place, Spinster were married by Banns. John Knight MADE HIS MARK and Mary GREEN signed. They married in the presence of James Thompson and James Wheway.

I cannot find a suitable baptism or burial for Mary Knight nee GREEN.

Children baptised to John and Mary Knight at Nuneaton are:

Elizabeth Knight 18 September 1803
Lucy Knight 8 July 1805

On Sunday 22 March, 29 March and 5 April 1807 Banns were read at Nuneaton for John Knight and Mary LOE, both of this Parish.

I could not find a marriage in Nuneaton for the above Banns but did find the below:

On 18 October 1807 at Holy Trinity, Coventry, John Knight, WIDOWER of the Parish of Nuneaton and Mary LOWE of THIS Parish married by LICENCE. John Knight SIGNED Mary LOWE signed. They married in the presence of (hard to read) ? Payne and Ann Meigh

So all was well and good until today ... I found this which would tie in with the 1807 Banns:

On 10 June 1807 at Nuneaton John KNIGHT, BACHELOR of this Parish and Mary LOE of the same place, Spinster were married by Banns. John Knight MADE HIS MARK, Mary LOE made her mark. They married in the presence of Wm GREEN and James Wheway.

So, is there more than one John Knight? Was the marriage at Nuneaton not recognised because John said he was a bachelor when he was in fact a widower? Is the John Knight who married Mary LOE, the same John Knight who married Mary LOWE. Did John Knight marry Jane Atkins, then as a widower, Mary GREEN and then Mary LOWE? Is the John Knight who married Mary LOE a different John Knight. It is so confusing.

To make matters worse, now I don’t know who the children baptised to John and Mary Knight belong to apart from the two above who were born before 1807 so would belong to John Knight and Mary GREEN.

There are the following two baptisms at Nuneaton for children of John and Mary Knight and now I don’t know if it is John Knight and Mary GREEN (as I have not found a burial), John Knight and Mary LOE or John Knight and Mary LOWE.

Sarah Ann Knight 26 October 1810 (she was buried in 1811)
Sarah Ann Knight 16 August 1812

Now, there are four baptisms all done at Nuneaton at the same time and it is after John’s death:

Samuel, Joseph, Elizabeth and Daniel sons and daughter of John and Mary Knight of Attleborough, baptised 29 November 1822. It also states that Daniel was born 24 August 1808; Elizabeth was born 8 July 1816 and Joseph was born 30 October 1819. There is no date of birth for Samuel, however, there is a burial for him on 11 Jun 1837 aged 14 so born 1822/23. Mary (which one?) must have had lumped their baptisms in all together to hide the fact that Samuel was born well and truly after John’s death.

But this also raises the question as to why the two Sarah’s were baptised separately? Were they born to a different John and Mary?

I would like to think that there is only the one John and that Mary LOE and Mary LOWE are one and the same person and that both Jane Atkins and Mary GREEN had died ... but there is so much confusion.

My 3x great grandfather is Joseph Knight who was baptised along with brothers Samuel and Daniel and sister Elizabeth. He went on to move to Birkenhead, Cheshire.

How can I sort this mess out? Any suggestions?

Gail

[pjm99]

Gail,
From the information you have you cannot know if John was born/baptised at Nuneaton. You only know he was resident there at the time of the marriage to Jane. There are at least two John Knights baptised in Warwickshire in 1780 and you add a year either way there are several more. I would suggest trying to establish John's background by exploring any records connected with his silk weaving, such as apprentice records.
HTH
Peter

[GailB]

Hi Peter

Thanks for your reply. You are correct in that I can't be sure that John was born or baptised in Nuneaton, which also means I can't be sure that he died in 1820. In fact I also can't be sure that my ancestor was married to Jane as that was part of my confusion.

What I can be sure of is that when my 3x great grandfather Joseph Knight married Hannah West in Aston on 2 May 1842, he was a labourer, son of John Knight a ribbon weaver. The witnesses were William and Elizabeth Ireland. Elizabeth Ireland was Hannah West's sister, they were born in Hartshill.

In the 1841 Census Joseph is in Hartshill working as an Ag Lab in the household of a Casper family. On the same page is his sister Elizabeth, a ribbon weaver, living in the household of Sarah Ward. Elizabeth married Sarah's son, George Ward later that year at Mancetter.

In 1851 Joseph and Hannah have 3 children and are living in Clothall, Hertfordshire. Joseph's place of birth is stated as Atterbury, Warwickshire (which I am taking to believe should be Attleborough).

In 1861 Joseph and Hannah are living in Birkenhead, and have 9 children including the 3 above. One of their children was born in Belgium. Joseph's place of birth is stated as Attebborow Again I believe it should be Attelborough.

In 1871 Hannah has died and Joseph is in Birkenhead with second wife Elizabeth and 5 of his children with Hannah. Place of birth is Attety? Warwickshire.

In 1881 he is in Birkenhead with Elizabeth and some of her children place of birth now states Hartshill.

In 1891 in Birkenhead and place of birth is just Warwickshire. Joseph died in 1897.

I agree that looking at John Knight's background would be best but I am in Australia and have no idea on how to go about that. The only way I can research is online and the apprenticeship records on Ancestry are few and far between.

Thanks again

Gail

[pjm99]

Gail,
Looking at the wedding entry there are two things that strike me.

Firstly, Joseph is stated to be a minor, so under 21, whereas Hannah is of full age. Therefore I would not believe the 1851 census where he appears to be older than Hannah. His DOB should be later than 1819. Assuming he was 20 at the time of their marriage his year of birth will be c1822.

Secondly, John Knight is not stated as being deceased.

Regards
Peter

[GailB]

Hi Peter

Thanks again, but unfortunately with Joseph his age can't be relied upon at all. I don't think he really knew how old he was.

When he died in 1897 he was stated to be 75 giving a birth year of 1821/1822
In 1891 he was stated to be 72 giving a birth year of 1818/1819
In 1881 he was stated to be 64 giving a birth year of 1816/1817
In 1871 he was stated to be 51 giving a birth year of 1819/1820
In 1861 he was stated to be 40 giving a birth year of 1820/1821
In 1851 he was stated to be 32 giving a birth year of 1818/1819
In 1841 he was stated to be 20 giving a birth year between 1816-1821

Hannah died in 1865 and I do not have her death certificate
In 1861 she was stated to be 41 giving a birth year of 1819/1820
In 1851 she was stated to be 31 giving a birth year of 1819/1820
In 1841 she was stated to be 20 giving a birth year between 1816-1821

In regards to Joseph being a minor on his marriage cert and Hannah of full age - their ages may (or may not) have been transposed. I have seen certificates where things are mixed up - father's around the wrong way for one.

In regards to Joseph's father not stated as being deceased I have found that they quite often were not shown as being deceased. I have a number that are not shown as deceased when in fact they were.

One that springs to mind is my 2x great grandparents Amelia Chetwin and Henry McDonald who married in Liverpool in 1869. Amelia's father is stated to be James Chetwin, a sergeant in the army. He died in 1857 in Fort Regent, St Helier Jersey.

"Nottingham Guardian
Thursday, February 12, 1857

Deaths

At Fort Regent, Jersey, on the 5th instant, suddenly, James Chetwin, quartermaster-sergeant 2nd Battallion 60th Royal Rifles, and second son of Mr Thomas Chetwin, of Nottingham."

Thanks for your help :-)
Gail

[jim1]

Ok this is what I make of it.
The John Knight marrying in Coventry is a different person. Mary Lowe signed own hand, Mary Loe made her mark so 2 different Mary's.
As the Banns were read at Nuneaton they would have to marry there which they did in June.
It wasn't compulsory to state widow(er)hood.
I have several examples of this particularly with young people who's previous marriage was short lived.
The Baptisms suggest he stayed in Nuneaton so those pre 1807 are to Mary Green, post 1807 Mary Loe.
I'm not sure what you mean by the Baptisms of the 2 Sarah's if the first one died in 1811.
I'm also not sure that John died in 1820 as there's a Baptism in Nuneaton of a Mary Ann Knight in 1825, parents John & Mary of Attleborough, ribbon weaver.
The other take on this is that the John who married Jane Atkins & then Mary Green is not the John who married Mary Loe & that John of the first ilk died 1820 with the other John dying after 1825.
It's a conundrum all right.

[GailB]

Many thanks Jim, you have helped make a little more sense out of this for me.

I had missed the baptism of Mary Ann Knight. If I had noticed that I would have realised that John could not have died in 1820. I have now removed all marriages from my tree in regards to John and just have John Knight and Mary as the parents of Joseph etc, although I now suspect that is Mary Loe, but that remains to be seen.

Thanks again
Gail

[pjm99]

Gail,
There is a further baptism for a William Knight 15 June 1828. For this, and the one Jim found for Mary Ann in 1825, the register clearly states parents are John & Mary of Attleborough and he is a ribbon weaver. So this prolongs John's life a little longer.
Peter

[GailB]

Thanks for that Peter 

I did see the baptism for William earlier today on Familysearch, but couldn't find it on Ancestry. Do you know if this baptism also states that John was a ribbon weaver?

I also found a John, Mary and son William that matches Williams DOB on the 1851 Census living in Staffordshire. John and William were born in Nuneaton and Mary in Atherstone I think. I also found a John Knight in 1861 (still married) but boarding in Durham and he was a silk weaver.

The internet is giving me a bit of grief at the moment as I had a problem with my tree on FTM and had to download it again from Ancestry so I can't show the details at present.

One thing I did find yesterday was Hannah West's baptism (Joseph Knight's wife). I thought she was the daughter of Thomas West and Elizabeth Underwood. She was with Elizabeth in the 1841 Census, and on her marriage cert to Joseph (which you have seen) she states Thomas West is her father - that is not true he is her grandfather. Hannah's baptism states she was the illegitimate daughter of Elizabeth West and a John Ward. Elizabeth was a daugther of Thomas West and Elizabeth Underwood. On Hannah's marriage cert Elizabeth and William Ireland were witnesses. I thought Elizabeth was her sister but it turns out she was Hannah's mother 

I will post the Census details I found earlier when the internet is behaving a little better for me.

Thanks again 
Gail