Author Topic: Thurleigh Parish Records  (Read 51837 times)

Offline bedfordshire boy

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Re: Thurleigh Parish Records
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 26 October 13 08:06 BST (UK) »
Joseph SABEY to Rebecca FISHER or HALL marriage 28 Dec 1814 Colmworth
Licence: Joseph Sabey of Bolnhurst and Rebecca Fisher alias Hull of Colmworth 27 December 1814
Was she Rebecca Fisher bap 4 Jun 1790 d of William and Susan at Northill Beds? Why was she alis HULL?

Have you disregarded Rebekah "daughter illegitimate of Sarah Hull" baptised at Colmworth on 30 Sep 1798 ? ...... as on 27 Mar 1798 Richard Fisher married Sarah Hull at Colmworth...
 
Presumably this must have been a late baptism if her parents were Richard Fisher and Sarah Hull who married six months earlier,
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Beds:   Cople: Luke/Spencer
            Everton: Hale
            Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey/Rook
            Potton:  Merrill
            Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey/Rook
            Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt
Hunts:   Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock
            Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn         
Cambs: Bourn: Bowd
            Eltisley: Medlock
            Graveley: Ford/Revell

Offline johnP-bedford

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Re: Thurleigh Parish Records
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 26 October 13 11:05 BST (UK) »
....... it leaves my supposition that she was the unnamed Sabey child born 25 Feb 1745.....

David, the unnamed child born 25 Feb 1745 is stated to be son of John Saby.
There is a prior child of John Saby born 29 Aug 1742

Later on 6 Mar 1752 child of John Saby named Elizabeth, born and died in a few weeks, buried elsewhere.
It next line says on 8 Nov 1752 "Another (named Sarah) buried at Kaisho"

Do you interpret this to be Sarah, child of John Saby ? 

Also there is no burial in 1752 at Keysoe of any Elizabeth or Sarah; Saby or otherwise

more points to ponder !


 
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Partridge - North Beds; Northants & Peterborough
Bishop - Bedford; Hunts, Hemingford Grey
Allen - Hunts, Hemingford Abbotts
Clement - Croydon
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Offline bedfordshire boy

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Re: Thurleigh Parish Records
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 26 October 13 12:17 BST (UK) »
Hi John
The note I made was as follows
... child of John Saby born Aug 29 1742
... child of John Saby born Feb 25 1745
... child of John Saby born Mar 6 1752, named Elizabeth, died in a few weeks, buried elsewhere

Perhaps I made an error with the 1745 birth, and put child rather than son. I haven't got the 1752 burial of Sarah at all, which is at odds with the marriage licence allegation.

I'm almost at the point of throwing in the towel with the Bolnhurst Sabeys!

David
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Beds:   Cople: Luke/Spencer
            Everton: Hale
            Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey/Rook
            Potton:  Merrill
            Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey/Rook
            Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt
Hunts:   Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock
            Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn         
Cambs: Bourn: Bowd
            Eltisley: Medlock
            Graveley: Ford/Revell

Offline Hemmum

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Re: Thurleigh Parish Records
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 26 October 13 12:46 BST (UK) »
Come on David don’t get down hearted!!

Quote
One thought that's already occurred to me is that there's nothing to say that Joseph Sabey, the other family in Bolnhurst, the one who married firstly Elizabeth Hall in 1751, was also non-conformist. The fact that he baptised one child from each of his three marriages in the established church suggests that he wasn't non-conformist. Which might be why I haven't inked in that Francis was his son.
Quote

Although Joseph Sabey married three times 1751, 1770, and 1778 (27 years time span) and probably died in 1804 Bolnhurst he only had three children baptised;
1.William, son of Joseph & Eliz Saby, labr, priv bap 26 Dec 1752 Bolnhurst PR (privately bap ?died) on its own perhaps not significant but then
2.Sarah Sabey d of Joseph and Elizabeth born Jun 1770 bap 9 Oct 1774 at Bolnhurst IGI P003551 (bap on burial born before marriage in Dec.)
Sarah, daughter of Joseph & Eliz Saby, age 4yr & 4 months (born Jun 1770) burial 9 Oct 1774 Bolnhurst PR
3.Elizabeth Sabey d of Joseph and Elizabeth bap 16 May 1779 Bolnhurst Beds (bap on burial)
Eliz, daughter of Joseph & Eliz Saby buried 16 May 1779 at Bolnhurst PR
Perhaps Joseph was unlucky not to have surviving children (his wives got pregnant son after or before the marriages) or perhaps he was NC and had other children who did not died so were not baptised.

I have read that (perhaps this needs clarification);
‘A burial could only take place in a graveyard of a Parish Church (unless a NC Denomination had purchaded land for burial. Burials started Little Staugnton Baptist 1786).
As an article on Genuki. 'If a new-born infant was sickly and thought unlikely to survive, its fate in Heaven required it to be baptised urgently. So any available clergyman was persuaded to attend the family home and baptise the child there, and hence the baptism was done "privately" and recorded as such. If the child recovered it would often be baptised publicly later and you may sometimes find "brought to church" with a date, added beside the original entry, or as a separate entry in the register'


Quote
Also there is no burial in 1752 at Keysoe of any Elizabeth or Sarah; Saby or otherwise
Quote
Was this the burial (remember unbaptised Elizabeth was buried 1752 Bolnhurst)?
Sarah Saby a child buried 8 Nov 1752 St Dunstan Bolhurst

John
Quote
Have you disregarded Rebekah "daughter illegitimate of Sarah Hull" baptised at Colmworth on 30 Sep 1798 ? ...... as on 27 Mar 1798 Richard Fisher married Sarah Hull at Colmworth...
Quote

John. I do not have these Colmworth records so thank you for this it seems spot on to explain her alias and again there is the Hull / Fisher / Sabey link.
Is there any information on the marriage licence?
Licence: Joseph Sabey of Bolnhurst and Rebecca Fisher alias Hull of Colmworth 27 December 1814

You mention Edmund Ward farmer of Thurleigh;  stood surety for the marriage licence of William Saby and Sarah Throssel.
Please excuse my ignorance but why would and what is the significance of standing surety for a marriage ?

Also
Edmund Ward is mentioned as a member of the congregation between 1766 & 1776 in the Little Staughton

Was this the Baptist Church and therefore indicate that he was NC? I can see Edmund and Mary Ward of Thurleighh baptised children there 1770-1786.

‘My’ Francis baptised his son ‘my’ Samuel there in 1793 although he says on the censu he was born 1792 at Bolhurst.. Samuel and his 1st wife Elizabeth baptised children from 1818 in Keysoe although his eldest child Naomi was probably born 1815 in Keysoe. I have been unable to find a marriage for Samuel Sabey to Elizabeth. Can you help please?
There is also a submitted entry for a second marriage for Samuel to Mary Dickins on 23 Mar 1829 Keysoe. Can you confirm this?


Offline bedfordshire boy

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Re: Thurleigh Parish Records
« Reply #31 on: Saturday 26 October 13 13:31 BST (UK) »
‘My’ Francis baptised his son ‘my’ Samuel there in 1793 although he says on the censu he was born 1792 at Bolhurst.
No, he didn't baptise his son there, as Baptists don't do infant baptisms. It was Samuel's birth that was recorded in Little Staughton Baptist Church book

He doesn't say in any census that he was born in 1792, as all that's given in censuses is his age. Ancestry have inferred a year of birth by deducting the age from the census year. As the census was taken at around the end of March each year, apart from 1841 when ages were rounded down anyway, this method of calculating the birth year stands a 25% chance of being accurate. There's a 75% chance that it was a year earlier, and that's assuming that the census age is correct, which it often wasn't. In other words if he said in 1851 that he was 58, he could have been born anywhere between 1 Apr 1792 and 30 Mar 1793, but that's assuming 58 is accurate. In other words again you can't be too exact when it comes to deducing birth years from census ages.

I'll pick up the Sabeys later as I want to have a closer look at the de Beauchamp thread on this board, as he was my 24xg grandfather and we don't get too many medieval queries!
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Beds:   Cople: Luke/Spencer
            Everton: Hale
            Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey/Rook
            Potton:  Merrill
            Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey/Rook
            Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt
Hunts:   Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock
            Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn         
Cambs: Bourn: Bowd
            Eltisley: Medlock
            Graveley: Ford/Revell

Offline Hemmum

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Re: Thurleigh Parish Records
« Reply #32 on: Saturday 26 October 13 13:57 BST (UK) »
The entry on the Little Staughton baptist register, which I assume his parents attended, is that Samuel Sabey was born 1 Feb 1793 but on the census Samuel was born in Bolnhurst which is where his parents married lived and were buried.

Offline johnP-bedford

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Re: Thurleigh Parish Records
« Reply #33 on: Saturday 26 October 13 15:49 BST (UK) »
Beds Archives probate records have the Letters of Administration for Thomas Hartop, farmer of Keysoe who was buried 7 Feb 1780 who died intestate - where Sarah Hartop of Keysoe, widow; William Peppercorn of Bolnhurst, farmer; & William Sabey of Keysoe, farmer swore on oath who she was, and which was granted on 18 Apr 1780 where the estate was not worth more than £300.

The will of Abraham Fisher of Keysoe Row who was buried Keysoe 2 Apr 1789 first releases Thomas Hartop eldest son of my wife Sarah from repayment of mortgage.... & acknowledges that he is hier to his father Thomas Hartop of Keysoe Row, yeoman (who died 1780) & the residue goes to wife Sarah. Will dated 28 Mar 1789 proved 13 Feb 1790 - not amounting to more than £300

Next Letters of Admin for Sarah Fisher who was buried at Keysoe on 20 July 1806 say that on 13 Dec 1806 John Hartop of Keysoe & declared he was lawful son of Sarah Fisher, widow, late of Keysoe who died intestate for a sum not more than £450. This was sworn by John Hartop of Keysoe, yeoman; John Claridge of Keysoe, yeoman & Thomas Evans of St Paul's Bedford, bricklayer. There is also an Inventory taken by William Williamson & William Crockford that listed all the animals & crops valued at £470. It states 'Agreed by children of late Sarah Fisher that their brother Thomas Hartop should take content of Inventory & that John & his brother Essex should be jointly be responsible for payment to brethren & sisters'  This was signed by John Hartop, Essesk Hartop, James Hartop, Eliz Fisher, Sarah Fisher & George Fisher.   
 
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Partridge - North Beds; Northants & Peterborough
Bishop - Bedford; Hunts, Hemingford Grey
Allen - Hunts, Hemingford Abbotts
Clement - Croydon
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Offline bedfordshire boy

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Re: Thurleigh Parish Records
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 26 October 13 17:22 BST (UK) »
Thanks very much John. This is very useful information. Do I assume you went to the Archives this morning? Not Kettering Archives!

So in 1780 who I assume to be Sarah's brother William was a farmer in Keysoe. Still can't see what became of him though.

Keysoe Muster List 1803 included
Edmund Ward Farmer class 4* Volunteer married
John Hartop servant Class 1** Volunteer unmarried
Essick Hartop servant Class 1 Volunteer unmarried
James Hartop labourer. 3 children under 10. Class 4. Married. Volunteer

No Sabeys, but if William was born when I think he was ie before 1747 he would have been too old to be included (max 55). He wasn't included in the owner of teams list either.

*    Class 4 Married men over 30
** Class 1 Men between 17 and 30, unmarried, no children living under 10
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Beds:   Cople: Luke/Spencer
            Everton: Hale
            Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey/Rook
            Potton:  Merrill
            Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey/Rook
            Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt
Hunts:   Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock
            Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn         
Cambs: Bourn: Bowd
            Eltisley: Medlock
            Graveley: Ford/Revell

Offline Hemmum

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Re: Thurleigh Parish Records
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 26 October 13 17:48 BST (UK) »
Hi John
Thank you so much for all your help. I found out why I did not find 'Rebekah "daughter illegitimate of Sarah Hull" baptised at Colmworth on 30 Sep 1798 ? She is Rebekah NULE on the IGI batch!