Author Topic: road block - suggestions welcomed  (Read 13278 times)

Offline bugbear

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road block - suggestions welcomed
« on: Tuesday 29 October 13 11:14 GMT (UK) »
The tree I have been building for SO's data has grown nicely.

Gramps tells me I have:
689 people
2080 events
1130 citations
862 pieces of digital media

Impressive, eh?

Sadly...

On one line, the BICE family, I hit a roadblock with an direct ancestor born in 1862. John Thomas Bice (only the great grandfather of my partner, so not even super distant).

Now, this man is sort of famous (in a small way) in genealogical circles.

When I first encountered him, I hit google, and found:

2004 - http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BICE/2004-08/1091961827
2004 - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=14860.0 (Shanko)
2006 - http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/surnames.bice/277.1/mb.ashx

(follow-up came there none on that last one)

Now, his data in baptism, census and wedding records is fine, all the way back to his presence (as a lodger) in his father in law's home, (1881 census) age 17. (Class: RG11; Piece: 1385; Folio: 49; Page: 21; GSU roll: 1341337.)

His claimed DOB is 1862, Stoke Newington. Sadly, there is no record in the ENTIRE country of a John Thomas Bice anywhere near that date, let alone in Stoke Newington. His wedding shows a father called "John", a bricklayer.

I also cannot find him in the 1871 census, when he was 7.

I deem is "quite likely" that he (or his father) moved to London from the massive Bice cluster in Cornwall.

The only approach I have considered that holds out hope is to "simply" build a genealogical tree for all the male BICE lines in Middlesex, since it's rather a rare name and hope that J T Bice shows up "by implication", but that's a lot of work for no guaranteed result.

I don't want people to do my research for me, but if anyone can suggest approaches, even laborious one, I'm all ears.

 BugBear
BICE Middlesex
WOMACK Norfolk/Suffolk

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Offline warncoort

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Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 30 October 13 09:54 GMT (UK) »
When did he die?Might he have fudged his birth date to retain his youth?I see several Bice (and variant) births in Middlesex so family group sheets might be worth doing.
Butcher Westmorland and Lancashire
Barton Westmorland and Yorkshire
Trethowan,Reeves Middlesex
Halsall,Green,Charters,Chatterton Lancashire
Smith, Moger, Maxfield Wiltshire
Woods,Speechley and Coles Huntingdonshire
Gibson,Blanks,Monk,Fokes Essex

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Offline bugbear

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Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 30 October 13 10:03 GMT (UK) »
When did he die?Might he have fudged his birth date to retain his youth?I see several Bice (and variant) births in Middlesex so family group sheets might be worth doing.

DOD - 1938-09-25. If he was fudging his DOB, he was pretty consistent about it from an early age, it only varies from 1862 to 1864 across every reference I have.

 BugBear
BICE Middlesex
WOMACK Norfolk/Suffolk

Offline warncoort

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Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 30 October 13 10:49 GMT (UK) »
Another avenue,A******y has a few trees for Bice born 1860-65 but lacking birth records,I wonder if his mother re-married as he is a no show in 1871.Try a search with given name and place of birth only??
Butcher Westmorland and Lancashire
Barton Westmorland and Yorkshire
Trethowan,Reeves Middlesex
Halsall,Green,Charters,Chatterton Lancashire
Smith, Moger, Maxfield Wiltshire
Woods,Speechley and Coles Huntingdonshire
Gibson,Blanks,Monk,Fokes Essex

Offline Gaie

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Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 30 October 13 11:32 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Any clues from the names of witnesses for his marriage?  ie siblings?

KR
Gaie
Sussex, Burwash/Somerset/South London: PANKHURST/FABLING/GREEN/KING/PARROT/POPE/PEMBROKE
Notts/Leics/London: POLLARD/BELAND/FELLS/MORRISON/MARYSON/CLARKE
Northants: MARRIOT/T
Suffolk: LINGLY/LINGLEY/LINDLY/LINDLEY/ SEAGER /SIGGER/SEGGAR/VINCE
Gloucs: WINDOW Glamorgan: JENKINS Cardiganshire: JONES
Poland: OZIEMKIEWICZ France: LINETTE

Offline bugbear

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Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 30 October 13 11:52 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Any clues from the names of witnesses for his marriage?  ie siblings?

KR
Gaie

Interesting thought. They are William O'Henry (I think, the signature isn't super clear) and Sarah Ann Kirby.

I'll look into them.
 
Edit;

A quick look in my own dataset shows Sarah A Cole, a sister of J T Bice's bride, "Jessie Amelia Cole" marrying a Joseph Kirby in 1875. This makes her, by the time of the wedding in 1882, "Sarah Ann Kirby", which is interesting and nice, but not helpful.

   BugBear
BICE Middlesex
WOMACK Norfolk/Suffolk

Offline jorose

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Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 30 October 13 18:01 GMT (UK) »
Have you looked into:

1. The Harold Bice b. 1864 Marylebone district (and then seems to disappear)
2. The Elizabeth Bice m. 1867 Islington - possibly to William Tom?  (Possibly as a widow in Fulham in 1881 - b. 1827 Cornwall).  Don't spot an obvious hit for her in the 1871 yet.

Plenty of possible alternate spellings - Byce/Bace/Bayes/Bias/etc.
It is possible that John Sr did not exist - John Thomas may not have known (or not known accurately) the details of his relatives if he was adopted (informally) or fostered out.

You could look through the 1871 for John/Thomas kids b. Stoke Newington of the right age, particularly those who do not have both parents, and check if they can be found in 1881.  Any who can't be found under their 1871 name in 1881 could then be checked for possible connections to the Bice family.
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 30 October 13 20:44 GMT (UK) »
Have you looked into:

1. The Harold Bice b. 1864 Marylebone district (and then seems to disappear)
2. The Elizabeth Bice m. 1867 Islington - possibly to William Tom?  (Possibly as a widow in Fulham in 1881 - b. 1827 Cornwall).  Don't spot an obvious hit for her in the 1871 yet.
I would agree they are both very interesting. Harold certainly does disappear.
A William Tom aged 64 (c1812) died in Islington in 1876.
William Tom is a very Cornwall name. There was one baptised there in 1812,
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=2866302
plus one in 1811, and three William Toms-s, in 1812 and 1813, just for example.
An Elizabeth Jane Simmons Bice was baptised in St Clement in 1827, but she is accounted for in 61 and 71 (husband Richard Nicholls, called Ann in 71; she married as Elizabeth Ann Symons Bice).

I have a bit of a peripheral fascination with the Cornwall Bices as my grx2 grfather, a bit of a mystery man (but not so mysterious as his son, to the point that I only know who his father was by figuring out who he was first!) was business partners with one of those Bices at one time. I summarized it in this old thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=468214.0
I imagine that my gr-grfather and the business partner's son were childhood friends or at least acquaintances, being the same age and born in the same place. The business partner's son went on to be an MP and knighted in Australia. My gr-grfather didn't. ;)

Once I finish this pressing overdue job here, I'll have a ponder on your John Thomas!
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline JaneyCanuck

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Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 30 October 13 21:16 GMT (UK) »
Rats. Wilm Tom, 1814 Cornwall, and Elbth Tom, 1827 Cornwall, are in St George the Martyr Southwark in 1871 with no kids.

But someone there has done something to the record (it didn't work - I think it was meant to correct Elizabeth's place of birth) and you could always try contacting them.

It would have worked well though if John Thomas's second name was actually Tom, unbeknownst to him -- as in the common practice of giving a child of unmarried parents the father's surname as a middle name. Still worth considering.
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?