Author Topic: road block - suggestions welcomed  (Read 13233 times)

Offline JaneyCanuck

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,003
  • The Famous Five take tea on Parliament Hill
    • View Profile
Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 06 November 13 14:14 GMT (UK) »
Your conclusions pretty much reflect what I had already said about demographic patterns in Cornwall.

Re spellings, are you going by modern (mis)transcriptions of names or are you checking original images? It is not too likely that the surname Bice would actually have been misspelled in Cornwall at the time. (And of course if the original says Brice, the name may well have been Brice, unless there is evidence from other records that it was actually Bice.) Ah, you may be referring to the Joseph and Jane Bice household in Hackney in 1841. (I had been going to mention that older Joseph Bice but decided there was no point in just collecting them ...)

I don't see any particular reason for concluding that JTB was not born where he said he was, especially given that no birth elsewhere can be found for him. Not that I would ever conclude that anyone was born where they said they were either; I just wouldn't conclude either way w/o evidence.
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline bugbear

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,841
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 06 November 13 14:23 GMT (UK) »
My memory's going; the "Brice" is in London, for Joseph(b1840) m Jane(b1853) in 1891.

Clearly "Bice" for these people on the other documents I have.

I was indeed collecting them, that I might proceed by elimination.

   BugBear
BICE Middlesex
WOMACK Norfolk/Suffolk

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline bugbear

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,841
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 06 November 13 14:28 GMT (UK) »
I'm not sure whether it's actually been mentioned here, but in the 1881 household where JT is with his future wife's family, he is enumerated as Thomas Bice.

Since he married as John Thomas, this could mean:
- his name was John Thomas Bice and he went by his middle name, and used it for the census
- his name was Thomas John Bice but he went by his middle name, but used his official first name for the census


On the name front:

He's "Thomas" on four or five documents, but he's principally "John Thomas".

There's a totally anomolous "Thomas George" in 1914 which I put down to the verger getting mixed; William George Bice is marrying the Daughter of William George Redford, so there's ample scope for confusion.

 BugBear
BICE Middlesex
WOMACK Norfolk/Suffolk

Offline JaneyCanuck

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,003
  • The Famous Five take tea on Parliament Hill
    • View Profile
Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 06 November 13 14:55 GMT (UK) »
Just another sidenote on the hypothesis first hypothesized by jorose and expanded on by me: birth/early life under a surname other than Bice -- yesterday I unravelled precisely one of those, so you can see how it worked:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=666975.10
(page 2 being where I took the known data and found the people) -- a pair of siblings appearing from nowhere at the ages of about 13 and 20, no record of birth, no previous census record, etc., and ultimately being identified by searching for their personal characteristics rather than their names, and their births found and childhood census found, under not one but two completely different surnames.

What that case (and my own) had, of course, was the triangulation point: a second person (sister, in both cases) to use for searching and then confirming the hypothesis. (And what I had there too was someone ... of the boy persuasion in both cases here? ... who resisted thinking outside the name box to the very end.)

Nobody's saying that is your answer. Just that the question needs to be asked.
HILL, HOARE, BOND, SIBLY, Cornwall (Devon); DENNIS, PAGE, WHITBREAD, Essex; BARNARD, CASTLE, PONTON, Wiltshire; SANKEY, HORNE, YOUNG, Kent; COWDELL, Bermondsey; COOPER, SMITH, FALLOWELL, WILLEY, Notts; CAMPION, CARTER, CRADDOCK, KENNY, Northants; LITTLER, CORNER, Leicestershire; RUSHLAND, Lincolnshire; MORRISON, Ireland; COLLINS, ?; ... MONCK?

Offline bugbear

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,841
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #22 on: Tuesday 21 January 14 09:46 GMT (UK) »

There's a somewhat interesting Bice household in Cornwall -- parents John, a copper miner, and Caroline (in one census called Catherine) and a bunch of sons of the same generation as our John Thomas -- all of whom are bricklayers in the 1881 census. In 1851-61, the family has both a John and a Thomas already, though, and the kids are regular as clockwork at about two-year intervals before and after 1850, and pretty much all accounted for. (If you do a search in 1881 for Bice, occupation brick*, you get those five in Calstock and Thomas in Stoke Newington.)



Apologies for coming back to this after a long pause.

This may say something about my search skills (or A***stry's indexing) but I can't find that 1881 census. Could you (please) post the GRO ref?

Oh rats - in 1881 John Bice, head of household was dead, so only Caroline shows. Found it!

RG11/2216/33p 7

  BugBear
BICE Middlesex
WOMACK Norfolk/Suffolk

Offline bugbear

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,841
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 14 December 14 10:08 GMT (UK) »
Reviving this thread:

You've probably elimated this chap:

John Thomas Benjamin Boyce  Jul-Aug-Sep 1862 Shoreditch London

The name Boyce came up when I searched for Bice.

No, he's new, although the Benjamin never came up in subsequent records.

I'll look into it, thank you.

 BugBear

Right. I've found the FreeBMD reference, and (looking around) I think I've found
the family, in the 1871 Census (Class: RG10; Piece: 454; Folio: 27; Page: 1; GSU roll: 823362). They're living in Shoreditch, with father
John Boyce a Furniture Dealer.

The family is quite large - 5 children born between 1859 and 1870.

Despite this, I can't find a single one of them in the 1881 Census.

Since I know that there "may" be spelling issues on the surname, most of my searchin, beyond the initial trivial probes, have been on forename combinations.

I've look for the parents, as a couple, I've looked for various combinations of the children, and I've looked for each parent combined with 1 or 2 of the children.

I've tried many combinations, and this technique has served well in the past in the face of transcription difficulties. It's failing me now.

Can anyone find where this family were by 1881?

 BugBear
BICE Middlesex
WOMACK Norfolk/Suffolk

Offline bugbear

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,841
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 14 December 14 10:11 GMT (UK) »
Looking backwards, I can find a double baptism in Spitalfields St Stephen, 15 May 1864, for "Clara Hester Jane" and "John Joseph Benjamin".

FreeBMD shows Jun 1864 for "Clara Hester Jane", but (start of thread!) Sep 1862 for "John Thomas Benjamin".

In all the records, the surname is clearly BOYCE.

 BugBear
BICE Middlesex
WOMACK Norfolk/Suffolk

Offline bugbear

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,841
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 14 December 14 10:21 GMT (UK) »
Found Clara in 1911, married, traced back to a marriage St Andrews, Hoxton, in 1882 (only 1 year after the 1881 census);

Clara Esther Jane Boyce marries a John Rolfe; her father is listed as John Boyce, Ginger Beer Maker, and the residence of the couple is 6 Phillipp St.

But I still can't find them in the 1881 census.

EDIT; "Darn" I've found Clara Esther Jane Boyce, but she's not with the family; she's a servant in the Ramsey household (Class: RG11; Piece: 391; Folio: 6; Page: 8; GSU roll: 1341084)

 BugBear
BICE Middlesex
WOMACK Norfolk/Suffolk

Offline bugbear

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,841
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: road block - suggestions welcomed
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 14 December 14 13:42 GMT (UK) »
Found Sarah Emma (or Emma Sarah) marrying a James William Fossett in 1896, again in At Andrews Hoxton, John George Boyce is listed as father "time keeper", and deceased.

Still no census for 1881 for these people!

 BugBear
BICE Middlesex
WOMACK Norfolk/Suffolk