James Turnbull

[DDE]

Has anyone associated a "Mary Turnbull" b. 1821 with this family.  She married a Thomas Pickering in 1842 in Wolsingham, and her father was Given as James Turnbull (Farmer).  Could it be your James Turnbull?  I can't find anything else about Mary

[Malcolm33]

Has anyone associated a "Mary Turnbull" b. 1821 with this family.  She married a Thomas Pickering in 1842 in Wolsingham, and her father was Given as James Turnbull (Farmer).  Could it be your James Turnbull?  I can't find anything else about Mary

     Well it is a possibility.    James's obituary in 1867 says that he had 12 children and I only ever managed to identify 9 of them.   By that time there were 101 grandchildren and 138 great grandchildren and 6 great great grandchildren.    The big problem is that after he and family moved from Roxburghshire to Hunstanworth or rather Nookton which is where his wife Betty Elliot died in June 1827 none of the births of the children in Hunstanworth can be found, including my great great grandmother Isabella Turnbull.   I was only able to identify her as being a daughter of James through marriage witnesses but mostly from her sister Elliot (born 1812 in Roxburghshire) who was present at the death of James.    This is undoubtedly due to them being Methodists - Wesleyans later on.    Some other Methodist births I've found in Durham are only registered as being in London and yet they were definitely in County Durham all the time.   So the Methodist circuit Minister probably came up from London to baptize the Turnbulls and many others.   Is there any other information on the 1842 marriage certificate?    Witnesses would be a great clue.

[Malcolm33]

 If it is any help I can confirm that James Turnbull was living with his son Anthony and his family in Smailburn near Stanhope in 1841.    Mary is not there and at the age of 20 she had probably found domestic work on another farm, and Wolsingham is no distance at all.    I'll see if I can Smailburn on a map - on the census previous entry looks like 'Boy' and next one was 'Birkholm'.

[Malcolm33]

    Having now found Smailsburn on a Map - it lies between Rookhope and Stanhope just west of the road - I feel very much convinced that Mary Turnbull who married 1842 in Wolsingham was another daughter of my James Turnbull and Betty Elliot.    I'll see what else I can find.

[DDE]

Good call on the marriage witnesses.  I don't have copy but I'll try to find out.
Mary is a great candidate to be one of James' children, but I can find no record of her before her marriage. 
She called her first son James, and her second daughter Elizabeth, (her first daughter was call Phoebe after Mary's mother in law).
Mary Turnbull is my Wife's great great grandmother

[Malcolm33]

Good call on the marriage witnesses.  I don't have copy but I'll try to find out.
Mary is a great candidate to be one of James' children, but I can find no record of her before her marriage. 
She called her first son James, and her second daughter Elizabeth, (her first daughter was call Phoebe after Mary's mother in law).
Mary Turnbull is my Wife's great great grandmother

    James Turnbull's wife Betty Elliot was baptized 'Elizabeth' as you might expect so that fits as well.  (Dykraw, Castleton, Roxburghshire 17 June 1781).    Next thing is to try and find Mary in the 1841 census.   I suspect she should show up as a servant in Wolsingham, but I didn't renew my Ancestry subscription and have dumped the old CD's I had with the 1841 census on them.   Can anyone help?

[Malcolm33]

Family Search have Mary Pickering as being born in Wolsingham, but that might be a mistake.  We know that 'Betty' Turnbull died in Nookton in 1827 which is close to Hunstanworth, but James did then turn up by 1841 at Smailsburn and I think that was Frosterly Parish which is where Mary Pickering was in 1851. -
Mary Pickering
England and Wales Census, 1851
Event Place     Stanhope Frosterley, Durham, England   
Registration District     Weardale   
Residence Note     Frosterley Village   
Gender     Female   
Age     30   
 Marital Status     Married   
 Relationship to Head of Household     Wife   
 Birth Year (Estimated)     1821   
 Birthplace     Wolsingham, Durham   
 Page Number     9   
 Registration Number     HO107   
 Piece/Folio     2388 / 302   
 Affiliate Record Type     Household 

  Thomas Pickering   Head M 32 Stanhope, Durham
  Mary Pickering  Wife F 30 Wolsingham, Durham
 Pheboe Pickering   Daughter F 7 Wolsingham, Durham
 James Pickering   Son M 6 Stanhope, Durham
 Elizabeth Pickering   Daughter F 4 Stanhope, Durham
 Thomas Pickering   Son M 2 Stanhope, Durham
 Mary Ann Pickering   Daughter F 0 Stanhope, Durham
 Phoebe Gowland   Servant F 16 Stanhope, Durham

[DDE]

I think I've found her in the 1841 census 
Martha Turnbull age 15 was in service at the farm of the Walton family in Ambling gate which is next door to Smailburn.
Martha could be Mary and the rounding of ages in the 1841 census could mean she was as old as 19 which fits with Mary's birthdate of around 1821.
Do you already have a Martha in James' Family, or could this be Mary?

[Malcolm33]

I think I've found her in the 1841 census 
Martha Turnbull age 15 was in service at the farm of the Walton family in Ambling gate which is next door to Smailburn.
Martha could be Mary and the rounding of ages in the 1841 census could mean she was as old as 19 which fits with Mary's birthdate of around 1821.
Do you already have a Martha in James' Family, or could this be Mary?

     Could be, but could also be another one of the 3 missing children.   In any case I think Mary's identity is more or less confirmed as a daughter of my gt.gt.gt.grandfather James Turnbull.  A friend has been helping and Sharon has sent me a copy of the 1861 Census for the Pickerings.   Mary Pickering is shown as being born in Hunstanworth in this Census.   I have only ever come across the one James Turnbull in Hunstanworth, so has to be the same.   

     Something else interesting, James Turnbull shows up as a Farmer at Smails Burn in 1841 and 1851 with son Anthony always an Ironstone Miner.   But in 1861 James is a retired Farmer and Anthony now head of the House - BUT they have moved to Burnt Walls and the entry right above them is at Ambling Gate.   

     I have also had a good look at James baptism - Parish Register of Falstone for April 1772 and his father was another Anthony and they were living at Craig House east of Falstone and now Crag House Farm.   This is very close to Smalesmouth Bridge just across the Tyne.   Could this be where the name Smails Burn came from.   Another thing is that Brian Pears in 1998 posted a comment about Craig House as being at Dickraw Falstone.    Well what a coincidence because James went from Falstone to Dykeraw Castleton Roxburghshire where he married Betty Elliot and they live there for many years before moving south to Hunstanworth.     Years ago I was contacted by someone descended from another Elliot Turnbull who lived at Ramshaw Mill, Wark - not far from Falstone.     Well that is another coincidence because Isabella and Elliot Turnbull, daughters of James lived at Ramshaw, near Hunstanworth.
   Sounds like this one Family was responsible for carrying on names of places they had previously lived.