Author Topic: Tobias Bauchop married Janet Vanan  (Read 20587 times)

Offline Reiver

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Tobias Bauchop married Janet Vanan
« on: Wednesday 01 January 14 18:36 GMT (UK) »
Tobias Balk married Janet Vanan in the parish of Clackmannan on 19th December 1746 (per SP image).  Ten months later their son John Bachop was baptised also in Clackmannan. (John Bachop lawful son of Tobias Bachop and Janet Vanan, Clackmannan (per SP Image)).

It is apparent that parish clerks had great difficulty in spelling the surname Bauchope, Bachop or similar. How should it be pronounced?  But Balk, Baulk etc ?

Based on her baptism date, Janet appears to be about 15 when she married Tobias.  SP provides three Tobias Bauchops who could be Janet's husband. All three baptised between 1710 and 1714 - one in Alloa, the others in Clackmannan.   However a marriage between a 37 yr old and a 15 year old?

Not knowing the area could anyone suggest a iikely graveyard, please?  Inscriptions recorded?
Any other thoughts please?

Regards
Reiver

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Offline MonicaL

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Re: Tobias Bauchop married Janet Vanan
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 01 January 14 19:31 GMT (UK) »
Hi Reiver

Happy New Year to you  :)

Would naming pattern help with children's names maybe?

John b. 1747 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYKJ-5Z6 ...would fit in maybe with one of the birth entries you likely have seen? https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYKX-MMK

Some a/try material also shows other children for Tobias and Janet:

Andrew b. 1749
Margaret b. 1752
James b. 1755

No reference to source for these though that I can see so far  :-\

Monica
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Offline Iandj

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Re: Tobias Bauchop married Janet Vanan
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 02 January 14 01:13 GMT (UK) »
Happy New Year, Reiver and Monica! :)

Tobias and Janet appear to be my 5x greats, so I've also been pursuing the evidence to pin these two down. There is a transcription in SP of Margaret's baptism on 28 March 1752 that tallies with Monica's find, but it spells the parents' names as Tobias Bauk and Janett Vannan. However, the name of my 3x great-grandmother, Mary (daughter of John), is spelt consistently as 'Bauchop' in the transcriptions and images of SP.

So yes, Reiver, name-spelling wasn't the parish clerk's strongest point, I suppose. My guess is that they tended to spell phonetically. I've seen the Bauchop name also spelt 'Bishop', but I suspect that it is commonly pronounced with a soft 'ch', as in the Scottish 'loch', which might explain the Balk or Bauk by some clerks.

I'd be as interested as you to hear suggestions as to a likely graveyard. I've seen four Tobias's in SP who were born between 1710 and 1717, and two Janet Vannans, one born in 1700 and the other in 1731. An age difference of 14 years isn't beyond the realms of possibility and neither is a marriage at 15-16 in those days.

Regards

Ian
Iandj

Dumfriesshire: Martin, Lorrain(e), Smart, Muir
Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire: Lorrain, Turnbull, Riddell, Elliot(t), Ker(r), Scott
Lancashire, Cheshire: Johnston, Rutter, Barrow
Ayrshire, Lanarkshire: Jamieson, Glasgow, Thomson, Riddet, Blair
Clackmannan, Fife, Stirling: Simpson, Kirk, Stein, Pryde, Penman, Hempseed, Bauchop

Offline Reiver

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Re: Tobias Bauchop married Janet Vanan
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 02 January 14 15:15 GMT (UK) »
And a Happy New Year to you two, Monica and Ian as well as all who read this :) :)

I'll try and do more on naming patterns but I need to discover any siblings of Janet Vannan.   I've found four of their children (cannot find more ):  John and the three you posted - all via SP.   Incidentally, John Bachop; Andrew Balk; Margaret Bauk and James Baulk ;D    The 'ch' sound as in loch does suggest a reason for the variety of spellings.

Tobias and Janet are my 5 X greats as well.  Son John and his wife Margaret Duncanson were my 4 X greats.

I've found just 3 Tobias births in the period 1710 to 1717 - though there was a Thomas. 
10th December 1710   son of John Bachop & Helen Henderson
31st October 1712       son of Tobias Bachop & Jean Arthur
3rd December 1714     son of John Bachope & Anna Mortimer

The first was in Clackmannan parish and the other two in Alloa (Clackmannan) parish?  How do these differ please?

I think I will discount the Janet born 1700.  Age 46 at marriage and then 4 children doesn't quite ring true.  Marriage at 15 (baptised 1731, possibly not soon after birth]  is OK but she married one of three men (in 1746) of  32, 34 or 36.  The youngest one perhaps is the best candidate  - for now anyway  :) :)

Regards
Reiver

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Tobias Bauchop married Janet Vanan
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 02 January 14 17:16 GMT (UK) »
Maybe another way to review this is to also look at the various Tobias Bachop (....and all its spelling variations!) who were having children 1730-1780 (or some suitable range) and try and connect these to possible births you have both found for a possible for Tobias by way of names used for children etc.

For example, there seems to be:

  • Tobias Bachop and Janet Vanan...you both seem to have children for them, as showing so far.
  • Tobias Bachop and a Jean Carr...familysearch has a number of children for them.
  • Tobias Bachop and a Catherine Hall...from a/try trees and also here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/MWQ7-MHR, but overall, limited, so hard to more that read and wonder  ::) Their marriage entry given as being on 6 Apr 1739.
  • Tobias Bachop and Jean Simpson...a marriage entry showing here in 1733 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/MWQ7-MHR

We like puzzles for sure...we must all be mad  ;D

Monica






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Offline Iandj

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Re: Tobias Bauchop married Janet Vanan
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 02 January 14 17:27 GMT (UK) »
Hi Reiver

I misread the Thomas birth as Tobias - sorry. I blame the after-effects of New Year!

I take your point about the Janet born in 1700 and I agree that a 1731 baptism does not necessarily mean a birth that year, even though it is a December baptism and the normal practice was to baptise as soon as possible after birth. Even so, a marriage at 15 was not unknown in those days.

If we are right that the 1731 baptism relates to 'our' Janet, I've found six siblings, all born to John Vannan and Bessie Lin:

1   04/10/1719   - ELIZABETH
2   25/12/1715   - ISABELL
3   31/12/1717   - JAMES
4   03/05/1713   - JOHN
5   27/03/1722   - MARGARET
6   30/05/1725   - MARY

But now I need to look at what Monica has added.

Family history is so stimulating!  :)

Regards

Ian
Iandj

Dumfriesshire: Martin, Lorrain(e), Smart, Muir
Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire: Lorrain, Turnbull, Riddell, Elliot(t), Ker(r), Scott
Lancashire, Cheshire: Johnston, Rutter, Barrow
Ayrshire, Lanarkshire: Jamieson, Glasgow, Thomson, Riddet, Blair
Clackmannan, Fife, Stirling: Simpson, Kirk, Stein, Pryde, Penman, Hempseed, Bauchop

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Tobias Bauchop married Janet Vanan
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 02 January 14 17:39 GMT (UK) »
Ian, I think the marriage of John Vannan and Bessie Lin (great name that one!) shows in 1711. Two entries that year on SP. One in Clackmannan and one in ? (banns & marriage most likely).

From 1711 to c. 1731, a good average 20 yr range for children (poor women is all I will say  :-X)

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Iandj

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Re: Tobias Bauchop married Janet Vanan
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 02 January 14 17:58 GMT (UK) »
Yes, indeed, Monica.  Thank you.

To help establish some parameters, I'm clear from the OPR birth record and the statutory death record on SP of my 3x great-grandmother, Mary Bauchop (1781-1870), that her father was John Bauchop, a weaver. The only John Bauchop/Bachop I've been able to find so far is the son of Tobias and Janet Vanan/Vannan.

This doesn't rule out the possibility of another John Bauchop, I guess, but it strongly points to Tobias and Janet being the right ones.

Ian
Iandj

Dumfriesshire: Martin, Lorrain(e), Smart, Muir
Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire: Lorrain, Turnbull, Riddell, Elliot(t), Ker(r), Scott
Lancashire, Cheshire: Johnston, Rutter, Barrow
Ayrshire, Lanarkshire: Jamieson, Glasgow, Thomson, Riddet, Blair
Clackmannan, Fife, Stirling: Simpson, Kirk, Stein, Pryde, Penman, Hempseed, Bauchop

Offline Reiver

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Re: Tobias Bauchop married Janet Vanan
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 02 January 14 18:19 GMT (UK) »
And then your Mary Bauchop married Michael Penman, did she?   Mine did, and one of several children was William (born/baptised 1820).  .  .  .  :)

 Neil