Philip CLEAR famous Veryan headstone but not in burial book + marriage query

[JaneyCanuck]

Keep in mind that a census age that equates to a dob of 1819 is more likely to be 1818 (more likely to have a birthday after the census date than before). The dob could have been as early as April 1818 -- and in fact it seems, from the interesting info posted by crimea1854, to have been possibly 1817. (Joobles, you said you have daughter Julia's birth certificate, but you didn't say the date of birth.)

Although there are indeed numerous Clear families in Veryan, I think the reason KolaKube8 wondered about Philip being Thomas's father is the birth in France, which is almost necessarily associated with military service, at the time Philip Clear was there.

I'm thinking this is another situation where DNA testing might provide an answer.


edit -- KolaKube8, is this Thomas's death?

Sep quarter 1867, Truro, Thomas Philip Clare aged 50

So that indicates a dob between June 1816 and September 1817 (depending on his actual date of death, and of course how accurately his age at death was reported), which fits with April 1817.

It also shows the interesting middle name Philip, of course.


I agree with Martin's post below: some pretty whopping big coincidences.

[crimea1854]

I note from Philip Clear's Army service record that he originally served in the 32nd then transferred into the 5th in 1816. The 5th Regiment of Foot were part of the Army of Occupation in 1817 - too much of a coincidence.

Martin

[JOOBLES]

Just looked at my birth cert. for Julia Clear in the West indies.  Her date of birth was 14th August 1819 and she was baptised there a month later.

Philip was at that time was a Corporal in the 5th Regt. of foot.

If he did have a son named Thomas I'll have a new name to put on my tree !!!!

J.

[KolaKube8]

Thank you to everyone that has responded to my post regarding Thomas Clear, all your correspondence has been greatly appreciated. You guys are incredibly quick at obtaining information. Being a complete novice (14 day free trial with F.M.P.), I am amazed at your fact finding abilities !
A big "thank you" to Martin for the information on Thomas' Coast Guard Service - very interesting.
As mentioned I will now need to obtain a copy of Thomas Clear's Marriage Cert, to see if his Father's details are mentioned. Is this best to order from F.M.P. or are there other ways to obtain a copy ? I do not live in Cornwall, so it would need to be postal or a download ?
Finally does anyone know why the surname can be either Clare or Clear and that this reoccurs throughout the subsequent generations ?

[JaneyCanuck]

Sorry, KK8, I wasn't clear enough.

What my "Rats" was about was that Thomas actually did marry pre-1837, i.e. before registration. That means no marriage certificate is available. The only record is in the parish marriages register, the transcription of which I linked to earlier:
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=marriages&id=492250
and it doesn't name parents.

The witnesses were John M? and Thomas G Hicks, which don't offer any clue either. Looking through the list on a search for all marriages in Kenwyn 1835-1837, e.g., Thomas G Hicks was apparently the parish clerk, since he witnessed dozens of marriages. For most, the other witness was a Margaret Courtice who signed with her mark. I don't see another witnessed by a John M, so he could have been a relation of some sort.

Spellings of surnames were still somewhat random in the early 1800s, and also it could depend on the predisposition of the person recording a name. One might guess that Clear was pronounced Clare at the time, or at least sounded like it in a local accent.

DNA testing has revealed that the surname of one of my ancestral male lines was Hoar, a surprise to me. That name, which is well known in both Cornwall and Devon, was spelled variously Hore, Hoar and Hoare, sometimes by the same people at different times, with different branches of what seems to be my particular Hoar clan mainly using one spelling or another in some cases. Then came modern times, especially in the US, when nobody remembered that the name was actually pronounced "Oar", and some individuals changed it, unilaterally, to things like Hoard and Orr.

So anyhow, you're stuck for evidence of Thomas's father, unless there is an actual record of his baptism in France that could be found somewhere ... which seems unlikely. Only one thought ... if Philip left a will it might have named his children ... and I don't really know about finding wills, myself.

Like I said -- DNA testing! If there is a direct male-line descendant of Thomas in both your family and Joobles', that would settle the question.

Just a general note that to order certificates, should you need any in future, always order directly from the GRO:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Any private intermediary will charge ripoff prices for no benefit.

[JOOBLES]

There are different dialects here in Cornwall so it's purely down to pronunciation as to the way it was spelt !!

I haven't found a will for Philip.

[KolaKube8]

Thank you for additional info. I will try to search for a Baptism certificate, or see if there are any other soldiers by the name of Clear/Clare serving in the Army regiments in 1817 at Valenciennes and where they originated from.

[JOOBLES]

Well if you finally find that Thomas was a son of Philip's that makes us relations 

[JaneyCanuck]

You guys, I was serious - a bit of YDNA testing would answer the question for definite.

I hunted around at FTDNA where I am involved in several projects. There isn't one for the name Clear or Clare specifically, nor is there a geographic project for Cornwall (which there needs to be! - there is one for Devon). But there is a Sinclair project that lists Clare as a variant,
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sinclair/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
and this means that you could apply to that project and get the discount by ordering through it:
http://www.familytreedna.com/project-join-request.aspx?group=Sinclair

The 37-marker test (Y-DNA37) would give a pretty definitive answer. It is the one that showed that the male line in one of my families is virtually certainly Hoar from the St Austell region (only possible to learn because someone with documented descent from that clan had already tested), and an upgrade to 67 markers this month, out of precaution and to try to refine the "distance to most recent common ancestor" (now about 12 generations, statistically), bore that match out almost perfectly. My situation is similar to KK8's - impossible to trace the parents of a child born 1819 by traditional methods, simply because of a dirt-common name (that now appears to be not the surname of the real father somewhere along the line before or after them) and no info beyond what is on the marriage record of the apparent parents, which is zilch.

This is dependent on each of you being, or having the cooperation of someone who is, in the direct father-to-son etc. line from your male ancestor (Philip/Thomas) ... and of course on there having been no "non-paternal events" in your lines. (where the daddy is not the person he was thought/said to have been) In the other family I am investigating, the only match I have, and am likely to have beyond that level of relationship because I'm positive the shared ancestor was the last of his line, is a person with the same grx2 grfather - our grandfathers were first cousins, but were both emigrants so family knowledge was lost - whom I had already met on line through info I had posted at a family history site. The match proves that both he and I are "legitimate" descendants of that ancestor, always useful to know when you're tracing your ancestors, but not telling us any more about other ancestors, as a match with someone more distantly related might do.

Even if you two were not a match for that close a relationship, i.e. both descended from Philip, you might get an idea of how far back you are related and who else you may be related to, and what your line behind Philip/Thomas might be, if someone else related does test in future.

(I am not working on commission! and in fact I have mixed feelings about the company in question as one does about any company one uses in this hobby ... <cough> Anc'y <cough> ... or for anything else; but for looking for people who share ancestors, many here will say it is the way to go.)