Author Topic: Alice Mary Midworth b Nottingham 1896 - Brick wall  (Read 6408 times)

Offline ireneflora

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Re: Alice Mary Midworth b Nottingham 1896 - Brick wall
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 16 January 14 19:48 GMT (UK) »

Quote

No chance whatsoever as it would have been an informal arrangement between the 2 parties

... Unless Ernest Noble was involved in making the arrangement - he was a solicitor.

In the 1891 census Ernest was living as a lodger with Benjamin Morton's family in Yorkshire, and Benjamin Morton was born in Sibsey, the small village in Lincolnshire where Alice fetched up as a boarder in 1901 aged 5. Proof of nothing, but an interesting connection.

Also I think that if Mary and Ernest decided to hide their marriage to the point that they told lies on every census return, and seemingly never lived together, they might choose not to reveal it on Alice's birth registration, especially if they knew they wouldn't keep the child. 

What do you think? Did people often tell lies on official documents? Especially the son of a clergyman and the daughter of a church warden?

I really appreciate any and all suggestions
Pat

Pat
 

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Offline MargP

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Re: Alice Mary Midworth b Nottingham 1896 - Brick wall
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 16 January 14 20:27 GMT (UK) »
Hi
Have you got the Will for Ernest, also I see that Alice is shown has a Niece on 1911 census. with a Jarvis family

Margp
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Offline ireneflora

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Re: Alice Mary Midworth b Nottingham 1896 - Brick wall
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 16 January 14 21:41 GMT (UK) »
Hi Margo
Yes, Ernest Noble died in 1941 and left bequests to his brothers and sisters, with the residue to his second wife Marian, who registered the death.
Some time between 1901 and 1911 Alice was moved from the Picketts in Sibsey, Lincs to the Jarvis family in Markfield, Leics. She remembered travelling alone on the carriers cart. The Jarvis family called her their niece in the 1911 census but I haven't found any family connection.
Later on she did remember living at Sibsey as a young child, and even travelled back there many years later with my grandfather to try to find out more. But she believed the Picketts at Sibsey were her family, and I only found out long after she died that she is on the 1901 census as a boarder with them.
Apparently my uncle remembered Alice talking about getting letters from an 'Aunt Mary', in the 1920s I guess, until they stopped suddenly. I'd like to think that was really her mother and she knew what was happening in Alice's life.
I'd love to find something somewhere to identify her mother, or possibly even both parents if it was the couple we've been discussing. Even excluding some of the options, such as whether she was from the Nottingham workhouse or not, would be another step on the way.
Thanks for your time
Pat



Offline MargP

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Re: Alice Mary Midworth b Nottingham 1896 - Brick wall
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 16 January 14 22:16 GMT (UK) »
Hi Pat

I think that your last resort, is for the Electoral Registers, to see who was living at all the addresses  you have found, the most important  being 11 Hanley St Notts

Marg x
Family History is a Pandora's box if you don't like what you see find a new hobby,only concentrate on the proven facts and not the facts you think you know.
Jenkins, Radnorshire. Herefordshire, Canada
Coley Dudley.
Baston, Cleobury Mortimer.Wolverhampton
Parker Stafford.
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Duckworth Cheshire.
Proud Walsall.Proud Cape South Africa
Horton Darlaston.
Stanton Walsall.
Tudor. Radnorshire
Pittaway. Droitwich

Offline CaroleW

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Re: Alice Mary Midworth b Nottingham 1896 - Brick wall
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 16 January 14 22:32 GMT (UK) »
I don't think the Nottingham WH features here.  Even if Ernest Noble did draw up any formal agreement re: Alice - you would have your work cut out trying to find it.

I cannot understand why a legally married couple who had a child 8yrs after they married, would register the birth in her mothers maiden name and then farm the child out to somebody else. 

Ernest was slightly under 21yrs old when they married - so surely parental consent would have been needed.  ???

Who were the witnesses to the marriage?

I wonder why they couldn't keep the child?  Both had funds and they would have had to pay for her keep anyway to the people looking after her.

All very odd  ???

I would give the Notts RO a ring or email them re: looking up that address for you

0300 500 80 80 general enquiries

e-mail: archives@nottscc.gov.uk


 
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Offline MargP

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Re: Alice Mary Midworth b Nottingham 1896 - Brick wall
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 16 January 14 22:54 GMT (UK) »
Perhaps Mary had an affair and Alice was not Ernest's child

Margp
Family History is a Pandora's box if you don't like what you see find a new hobby,only concentrate on the proven facts and not the facts you think you know.
Jenkins, Radnorshire. Herefordshire, Canada
Coley Dudley.
Baston, Cleobury Mortimer.Wolverhampton
Parker Stafford.
Hammond/s Wolverhampton.Shropshire
Duckworth Cheshire.
Proud Walsall.Proud Cape South Africa
Horton Darlaston.
Stanton Walsall.
Tudor. Radnorshire
Pittaway. Droitwich

Offline CaroleW

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Re: Alice Mary Midworth b Nottingham 1896 - Brick wall
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 16 January 14 23:15 GMT (UK) »
Ernest & Mary married 1888 but are not shown together on any census and Alice was born 1896

Mary is shown as Midworth and a spinster in 1891/1901/1911 and also on her will

Ernest is shown as unmarried on the same censuses

Ernest & Mary clearly still had contact as he was her executor so unless their marriage was dissolved or they divorced - none of it makes any sense

Was Ernest shown as a widower on his first marriage? 
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Offline ireneflora

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Re: Alice Mary Midworth b Nottingham 1896 - Brick wall
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 16 January 14 23:29 GMT (UK) »
I can imagine that Mary may have been pregnant and they married in a rush in 1888, then perhaps the baby died and they just decided to keep quiet about it. I've looked for a Midworth or Noble birth in that year and haven't found anything encouraging, but Mary's sister Sophia and her husband did register a baby that year, a boy with the middle name of Ernest.
Perhaps the age difference was embarrassing or there was family pressure to keep them apart. Perhaps Mary had to look after her father or Ernest was expected to go off and make a career for himself. But they certainly did keep in touch - he moved around a lot but she had his address when she wrote her will nearly forty years later.
Very frustrating. There must be something documented somewhere.

Offline ireneflora

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Re: Alice Mary Midworth b Nottingham 1896 - Brick wall
« Reply #17 on: Friday 17 January 14 18:01 GMT (UK) »
Thanks MargP and CaroleW for your continued help here, it is really making me think through everything again.

CaroleW, you have given me a good nudge re Ernest's age at their marriage - I hadn't realised that Ernest would have needed permission as he was under 21. In fact neither of them told the truth about their ages on their marriage cert - he claimed to be 22 and she 23.

I've always assumed they married more or less in secret as Mary managed to keep up the pretence of being a spinster on subsequent census returns. If that's the case and they then regretted marrying, for whatever reason, you could understand that they might not want to tell their fathers that they had falsified information on an official register and married by licence in a Nottingham registry office. They must have agreed to keep it secret, and given that they kept in touch I think it would be reasonable to assume that if Mary Midworth (1853) is Alice's mother then Ernest is probably her father. It might have been even more difficult to tell the truth about being married eight years later.

The witnesses at the registry office were W Midworth - Mary's brother William I think - and Henry Stones, whom I don't know. Mary gave her address as Liddington St, Basford, so that's another one to check out on the electoral register.

Thanks very much for you advice about electoral registers, I'll get on to them as my next job. Will the Notts Record Office really do the look up for me?

Pat