Author Topic: HELEN BARCLAY,  (Read 7536 times)

Offline Isabel H

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Re: HELEN BARCLAY,
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 26 June 14 10:46 BST (UK) »
What is your source for Helen's death?

In the 1841 census ages were rounded down to the nearest 5 years, so age 55 could be 55-59. But if Helen was 63 in 1851, she should have been 53 in 1841. Maybe she wasn't sure of her exact age, or lied about it on one or more occasions.
 
Up until 1929 girls could marry at 12 and boys at 14 with consent, but they were usually older.

If she married in the Episcopal church, perhaps she was also baptised there?

Entries in the London Gazette re Sir George Ogilvy suggest it is possible John was indeed servant to him, in the sense that he served under him in the Militia, perhaps.
GRAY - Inveresk; Lanarkshire
LINDSAY - Lanarkshire
PURDIE - Lanarkshire; W. Lothian
POZZI - Elgin; Lancashire
MACKENZIE, MORISON, MACRAE - Lewis
ARCHIBALD, HAY, HUNTER, SNADDON - Clackmannanshire
COXON, HALL, JACKSON, SHOTTON - Northumberland

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Offline jennywren001

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Re: HELEN BARCLAY,
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 26 June 14 11:25 BST (UK) »
Hi,
I had a wee look at this couple on the census.  On the 1841 John (down as a hand loom weaver) and Helen look to be living in with the Gleggs have you found any connection to this family?  On the 1851 Helen (down as a spinner) is living with her grandson John Robbie- according to the census born 1827 in Arbroath - I'm presuming you have his birth to Amelia Simson and John Robbie in Arbroath in 1826?. 
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBCQ-XP1

I can't seem to find him or his parents on the 41? Did Helen and John only have the one son? 
Jen
North East Scotland above the Tay...
JOLLY, Johnston,Thom, Rae, Davidson, Fielding, Sherret
FEARN, McKenzie, Stirling [brick wall], Robb, Wilson, Stott
RUSSELL, Fullerton, Christie, Cochrane, Davidson, Coutts, Easton, Scott
FRASER, Henderson, Noble, Mundie, Goodall, Thain, Neish, Moir

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Offline wildcats13

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Re: HELEN BARCLAY,
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 26 June 14 14:18 BST (UK) »
The source for Helen's death is from previous family efforts.
Death date was 3 November 1852 in Crawton, Kincardineshire. This lines up with her Will which I have and is dated 7th December 1852.
Her grandson, who was with her in 1851 census, John Simpson Robbie, married that year and arrived in Australia in 1855.
John S Robbie's father, John Robbie was married to Amelia Simpson in 1825, enlisted in the 25th Regiment of Foot in 1826 and was medically discharged in 1837, and died in 1838.
Amelia died a few years after the birth, possibly from compilcations.
if the 1788 birth is correct, then Helen was born in St Cyrus, Kincardineshire.
The mention of John being a servant to Sir George Ogilvy now makes a bit of sense, as he joined the army 7 months before marrying.
There is no family connection with the Gleggs in the census.
Wildcats13

Offline Isabel H

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Re: HELEN BARCLAY,
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 26 June 14 15:33 BST (UK) »
The 1851 census shows Helen as born in Dunnottar parish. St Cyrus parish (aka Ecclesgreig) is Kincardineshire's southernmost coastal parish. However, looking at the Ordnance Survey name books on ScotlandsPlaces I came across Straton school, erected by the owner of Kirkside, which is in St Cyrus parish, just north of Montrose, and was also known as Straton. To me at least, Straton sounds more like Tratown than Crawton does, even allowing for the local tendency to pronounce "aw" as "ah".    In 1789 a David Barclay was the tenant of  Hill of Morphie, a small farm in that area.
If Helen was born in St Cyrus parish and moved to Dunnottar as a small child, she would not necessarily have known/remembered.
GRAY - Inveresk; Lanarkshire
LINDSAY - Lanarkshire
PURDIE - Lanarkshire; W. Lothian
POZZI - Elgin; Lancashire
MACKENZIE, MORISON, MACRAE - Lewis
ARCHIBALD, HAY, HUNTER, SNADDON - Clackmannanshire
COXON, HALL, JACKSON, SHOTTON - Northumberland

Offline jennywren001

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Re: HELEN BARCLAY,
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 26 June 14 16:39 BST (UK) »
You may have seen this already but just in case...
1841 census there's a John Robbie age 15 living with the Barclay family at Tullynessle in Aberdeenshire. James Barclay (housepainter) is head of the family and on the 1851 census his birth place is showing as Stonehaven.

Can I just recap all these John Robbies have got my head nipping...
Father
John Robbie the weaver was never a solider and can be found on the 41 census with wife Helen.
Son
John Robbie was in the army died before the 41 census - partner Amelia Simson
Grandson
John Robbie born Arbroath 1826, was listed as a grocer on the 51 census - marries Ann Ballintyne in Glasgow 1852 - they have a son (John Ballintyne Robbie) born Perthshire in 1853.  He may be showing with the Barclays in 1841 and is with his granny in 1851.
 
Just for background:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=630912.0

Jen

Edit :
On Freecen John (the Father) is down as a weaver and pensioner so he too must have been in army?
North East Scotland above the Tay...
JOLLY, Johnston,Thom, Rae, Davidson, Fielding, Sherret
FEARN, McKenzie, Stirling [brick wall], Robb, Wilson, Stott
RUSSELL, Fullerton, Christie, Cochrane, Davidson, Coutts, Easton, Scott
FRASER, Henderson, Noble, Mundie, Goodall, Thain, Neish, Moir

Offline wildcats13

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Re: HELEN BARCLAY,
« Reply #14 on: Friday 27 June 14 03:26 BST (UK) »
Recapping your recap;
Father:
John Robbie was born in 1782 in Old Machar, married Helen Barclay on 4 October 1801 in St James Episcopel Church, Stonehaven, joined the Royal Artillery Drivers in April 1801 in Aberdeen, discharged in January 1819 with pension. They provided paid passage for him, his wife and child back to Scotland from Woolwich where he was discharged. Returned to live in Barclay Street, Stonehaven and became a hand loom weaver, and died on 23rd July 1849 in Stonehaven.
Son:
John Robbie was born on 9 September 1804 in St Leonards, Colchester, Essex, England, while father was stationed there with the Army. He married Amelia Simson/Simpson on 28 September 1825 in Arbroath, Forfar. He enlisted in the 25th Regiment of Foot on the 10 February 1826 at Montrose. He was medically discharged in 1837, and died in a St Clements Infirmary on 21st August 1838. There was only one child, who was born 21 July 1826. Amelia died on 11 May 1831 in Old Deer, Buchan.
Grandson:
John Simpson Robbie was born 21 July 1826 in Arbroath, Forfar, and believe that after Amelia died in 1831 when he was 5, and because his father was stuck in the army, that the grand-parents then looked after him. Although he was not with them in 1841 census, I did find a John Robbie aged 15, born Angus, working as Ag. Labourer on Cortachy & Clova, which may very well be him. When he married Ann Ballantyne in 1852, he was shown as a Prison Warder. They travelled to Australia in 1855 with their son John Ballantyne Robbie and settled in Bombala, NSW and had a further 10 children.
I have the army records for both Father and Son.

With regards to Helen, the Family Search record of her birth showed she was christened at St Cyrus on 13 October 1788 but doesn't show birth & birthplace details. You could be right regarding Straton, as the info I first had was Trawton, but could find no such location, and after a search of the area on a map, felt that it may have only been a transcription error and should have been Crawton as it was closeby.

Also I made a mistake with her death detail as she died (I assume at home) in Stonehaven and not Crawton as I had indicated. (it was late at night and tried to work from memory, sorry). I am not sure where the date for her death came from, but it is possible that John Simpson Robbie may have had it recorded in his diary as I have heard through the family that he had one. Also, he probably would not have left for Australia until she had died, and her Will & Testament is dated December 1852. I cannot find any official record of her death with the normal rescources available from here. In Scotlands People, her death is in neither Pre1855 or Post 1855.

Hope all the above makes sense, and would love to still find confirmation of Helen's correct birth & death details. Interesting about the age of consent for marriage up to 1929. Maybe the fact that she was only 16 when their son was born had an affect on having more children. Who knows.
Regards,
Wildcats13




   

Offline jennywren001

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Re: HELEN BARCLAY,
« Reply #15 on: Friday 27 June 14 13:51 BST (UK) »
Hi,
On the 1851 census there's a John Robie living at 56 High Street, Montrose born around 1804 occupation stableman.  He looks like he's with a (new?) young wife age 26...have you eliminated him as the John Robie who deserted?  I notice the John who deserted was born in Arbroath and according to his army records his occupation was a groom.

Seems someone has gone a fair bit of work on this family - posting with the usual health warning!
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=robbie-misc&id=I12

Jen


North East Scotland above the Tay...
JOLLY, Johnston,Thom, Rae, Davidson, Fielding, Sherret
FEARN, McKenzie, Stirling [brick wall], Robb, Wilson, Stott
RUSSELL, Fullerton, Christie, Cochrane, Davidson, Coutts, Easton, Scott
FRASER, Henderson, Noble, Mundie, Goodall, Thain, Neish, Moir

Offline wildcats13

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Re: HELEN BARCLAY,
« Reply #16 on: Friday 27 June 14 15:00 BST (UK) »
The details on the attached link you sent, are basically what I emailed to Ken Doig earlier this year.

With regard to the John Robie from Montrose, I had looked at him early in the piece, but later information showed that our John was born in St Leonard, Colchester, where his father was stationed in the area at the time and had married quarters.

After finding John was medically discharged, and considering his overall health condition, I did not think he would last long. If he had survived longer, I would have expected him to find his son. However I think he would have been too embarrassed about his situation as he had spent over 11 years in the army, disgraced because of the desertions, and had no pension to show for his time there, and on top of that he had lost his wife, so I wasn't surprised to find his death details a year after his discharge.

Wildcats13



Offline AndyWatt

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Re: HELEN BARCLAY,
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 24 June 15 15:41 BST (UK) »
Might be able to help here .... I have been researching my family tree as I am descended from George Barclay, who was the younger brother of the Helen Barclay you might be looking at. There's probably three different Barclay families living in St. Cyrus in the eighteenth century who were probably off-shoots from the main family Barclay family. Here's what I know of this family -

EARLIEST GENERATION
The earliest members of the family that can be traced reliably are George Barclay and Isabel Thomson.  They have a family headstone at St. Cyrus Nether Churchyard which was then re-used by their descendents for over 100 years. George Barclay is likely to have been the boy recorded as being baptised at St. Cyrus on December 16th 1716, the son of Alexander Barclay of “Comistoun”.  Isabel Thomson’s birth cannot be traced with any real certainty.
 
George Barclay  and Isabel Thomson were married on 9th June 1743 in the old church at Benholm, near Johnshaven, in Kincardineshire. The family stone at St. Cyrus Nether Churchyard states the family were sub-tenants (tenant farmers) at “Dubton of Comostoun”.  This farm is spelled as “Comostoun”, “Comistoun” or “Comieston” over time. The modern day “Commieston” is just off the main road between the river North Esk and St. Cyrus.

The gravestone is dated 1782. The reverse is highly decorated with a carving of a set square and dividers, hammer and plough. The plough is a reference to his profession as a farmer. The other symbols are Masonic. This, and the accompanying inscription, would indicate that he was a highly religious man and a freemason. The stone would have been expensive.  The late eighteenth century was a time of relative prosperity for Scottish tenant farmers and a gravestone of this quality shows that the family must have been financially comfortable.

The inscription reads as follows:

“When first I drew the breath of life I nothing knew at all yet Long before my death I knew  That I with Adam fell  my body lays neer to this stone Waiting the morning call When Christ will take me by the hand:  he is my all and all.”

There are nine sets of initials on the headstone. These may refer to their children. George Barclay and Isabel Thomson had a large family.  There are baptisms recorded at St. Cyrus for at least five of them; Alexander (b. 1748), Katharine (b. 1750), John (b. 1753), James (b. 1756) and David (b. 1758).

NEXT GENERATION: David and Catherine Barclay

David Barclay, son of George Barclay and Isabel Thomson, was born on 9th April 1758. David married Catherine (or Katherine) Barclay at St. Cyrus on December 23rd 1786. The marriage entry seems to imply Catherine’s maiden name was also Barclay.

David and Catherine Barclay lived and farmed at the “Hill of Morphy”. There are surviving tax records for the farm from this period.  David Barclay paid 2 shillings for “Cart Tax” in 1786 and 1790. He had two horses and paid 4 shillings and sixpence in “Farm Horse Tax” in 1797.  The Hill of Morphie was (and still is) a farm settlement to the south-west of St. Cyrus. It is very close to Commieston.

The couple produced a large family, with baptisms being recorded at St. Cyrus for at least seven of their children; David (b. 1787), Helen (b. 1788) Susanna (b. 1790), Catherine (b. 1792), Agnes (b. 1794), George (b. 1796) and Margaret (b. 1800).

There are no details of the deaths of David or Catherine Barclay. As I said, I am definitely descended from George (b. 1796) as he is also buried in the same family plot at St. Cyrus and the family re-used the headstone when he died in the 1860s. If you want a copy of a picture of the Barclay headstone let me know and I can send it to you.