Author Topic: Pre registration records  (Read 16726 times)

Offline sandyjose

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Pre registration records
« on: Tuesday 04 February 14 18:32 GMT (UK) »
Is there anywhere you can find records for births and marriages before registration started? Also do churches have records of funerals,I know few churches had graveyards so would a service be held in a church prior to burial or was usually just a graveside service.

Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Pre registration records
« Reply #1 on: Friday 07 February 14 13:34 GMT (UK) »
Not enough specific info to be helpful. start with Ros Davies Co Down website part of Rootsweb its free,  look up churches [in Co Down] If you know your civil parish its easy thereafter open up s few and you will see ros has got the information on church records i.e. BM burials etc under each church. Not all records have survived. You might be surprised how many are on familysearch.com
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Offline sandyjose

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Re: Pre registration records
« Reply #2 on: Friday 07 February 14 16:45 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for your reply.Do you mean,I haven't given enough detail? I have tried Ros Davis'site,I go back every so often to see if there are any updates.I have also looked at Family Search and anywhere else that might have info.What I'd like to find is my great x3 grandad's birth,marriage and death.He was James Gunning,a farmer in Co Down(I think) he must have been born in the 1780s,he married Jane Stewart approx 1807,his first son Samuel was born 1808,Where or when he or Jane died I haven't a clue.His son William was my great x2 grandad,I know he was born in 1823 but not where.I know his wife was Mary Snodden,but not where they married their first son was also Samuel born 1848.I don't know where William or Mary died or when,William was a Shoemaker.William's son Thomas was my great grandad,born in 1855,probably in Newtownards,I have his marriage and his death. I contacted 1st Presbyterian Church  and they sent me a list of all the baptisms and marriages for members of my family,but nothing for either William or James,it was probably too far back.I would love  info about James and William but I've run out of places to look.

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Pre registration records
« Reply #3 on: Friday 07 February 14 17:03 GMT (UK) »
In general, Presbyterian churches do not keep burial records (if they do it's probably only recently and sometimes not even a map of the graveyard exists). Presbyterians were often buried in Church of Ireland burying ground (because they had to pay tithes they were allowed burial there and many Presbyterian churches did not have their own ground) but they are not always recorded in the C. of I. burial register and any old headstones may not have been kept in place after a family stopped using the plot.

There's lots of information about Presbyterian records in ANTRIM RESOURCES at the top of the board and on PRONI's website www.proni.gov.uk

For the period you are looking at the mourners would have taken the body from the house to the churchyard (it's only in recent times that church funerals have become common).
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Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Pre registration records
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 08 February 14 19:18 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for expanding your interest. I cant guide you to church records further, except to ask did you search the Cof I records in Newtownards, as well as the other presbyterian churches in the parish. Then I wondered about farmers who stay for many generations. {The Gunnings at Drumawhey in Newtownards had caught my attention.}    Then I spotted a Gunning Whitla marriage in Newtownards. I have a Gracey Whitla/Whitley connection in Comber and Newtownards.  I will check out my limited Whilta research and come back to you.

Have you looked at Genes Reunited if you are not a member,  There are 18 matches for Gunning in Co Down before 1838. one or more of these tree owners might have uncovered some data related or unrelated to your line

Have you tried the free index for http://www.ancestryireland.com/ It has a Samuel son of James born Co Antrim1820 they also mention 5 entries in the Index to 1796 Flaxgrowers Bounty List, which I looked up elsewhere but no Gunning in Co Antrim or Down.
The same applies to http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie.  It widens the search using the variant Guning.  {I am uncertain about the Tithes  for Co Down being complete}

Using www.lennonwylie.co.uk
In 1820 Custom House Quay Daniel Gunning, Clerk of Permits [Included because it’s a unique job}.
In 1843 There is a Gunning cabinet maker in Donaghadee but no Gunning in Newtownards
In 1852 there is a Robert Gunning living in Craigavad in Holywood parish

Have you tried the local history unit in the Library section of the SE Education and library Board Ballynahinch who are developing an  index to Co Down journals and newspapers.

I wanted to get a feel of the distribution of the name so I used Griffiths valuation about 1860s which I am sure you know about, and found these parish locations for Gunning, so although scattered and not focused into one small area, the majority live around the Ards peninsula, all of which means to me they have probably lived there from before 1700.
 ARDQUIN, BALLYPHILIP, BANGOR, CASTLEBOY, COMBER [I have encountered some references posted as  Newtown Ards District], DONAGHADEE, GREY ABBEY,  HOLYWOOD
 MAGHERADROOL,  NEWTOWN ARDS  [I have encountered Donaghadee items posted as within Newtownards district. But not the reverse ]. SAINTFIELD
They also leased property in  ARDQUIN, BALLYPHILIP, DONAGHADEE, HOLYWOOD
 and MAGHERADROOL. Showing the family surname was more successful than many others

While I am in Griffiths the map section would show the homesteads boundaries. This is based upon the 1st rev of the 1st edition of the OS about 1860s, but the 1st edition 1830ish exists . Copy of town lands in SE library at Ballynahinch

In 1876  Landowners of Ireland, James was the only Gunning landowner in Co Down listed at Ballygrainey which is either in Bangor or Holywood civil parishes

PRONI has Probate of the Will of Eleanor Mary Gunning late of Drumawhey County Down Spinster who died 19 June 1904 granted at Belfast to Andrew Gunning Grocer etc  Another will refers to a Gunning living in Balliggan Balliggin Inishargy   21; 62/65   4km SW of Ballywalter; I stopped looking therafter

So that’s my contribution apart from the Whitlal/Whitley marriage which if I find I will come back to you.  Lets hope you break through the brickwalls
JimG
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Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Pre registration records
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 08 February 14 19:25 GMT (UK) »
Did you know about Conlig 
Ros Davies website has
Miss   Mary   SNODDEN SNOWDEN   . Bangor & Newtownards   wife of William Gunning of Conlig ; mother of Sarah b. 29 Jun & bpt. 7 Aug 1853 & David b. 6 Feb & bpt. 5 jun 1858 & Henry b. 27 jun & bpt. 10 Sep 1860 at 1st Newtownards Presbyterian Church   PR
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Offline sandyjose

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Re: Pre registration records
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 09 February 14 22:39 GMT (UK) »
Many thanks for all the research you have done.Conlig is where I believe William Gunning lived before he married.James,I believe was a farmer,whether it was in Co Down,I'm not quite sure.Andrew Gunning,James' son was also a farmer,whether he farmed the same place as his father I don't know.
 James had 4 sons Samuel who went to Glasgow,where he had a cab company,James,he also went to Glasgow,he was a labourer,,he returned to Ireland after his wife,Agnes ,died.William,my great x2 grandad stayed in Newtownards,working as a bootmaker.I have seen that he went to Glasgow but I can't find him on any census there.Andrew,I've already mentioned.
 William had 5 sons,Samuel, I don't know much about,I think he went to Scotland,James,after marrying in Glasgow he went to New Zealand,Thomas,my great grandad he was a shoe maker,,he also went to New Zealand,leaving his family behind.(there's more to Thomas's story but I won't bore you)David,he stayed in Newtownards,he was a shoemaker until his death in 1921.Lastly there's Henry who I don't know anything about.
 Thomas' son William James was my grandad and his son William McMillan(after his mother) was my father.
 I have looked on many sites to find more information but,so far I,ve not found anything more,Any help or suggestions you have are very welcome

Offline sandyjose

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Re: Pre registration records
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 09 February 14 23:35 GMT (UK) »
I have just gone back over the posts and I realize I haven't really answered the post that Ballyaltkilligan posted. Drumawhey seems to be where the family lived at some point.Yes I have looked on Genes Reunited,I am not a member but I can see anything that might be relevant.Re:flax growers,I doubt if that would apply as my ancestors weren't weavers,another branch of my family were.
 The cabinate maker in Donaghadee,could well be related,as I know nothing about my great x3 grandad James,he could have had brothers who had sons,there's certainly a lot of Gunnings around Co Down,Co Antrim and Co Armagh I would think they originally came to Ireland with the Plantations in the 1600s.
 I have a membership to Ancestry,but like many sites most of their records are from when registration began,getting back before registration began seems to be difficult.

Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Pre registration records
« Reply #8 on: Monday 10 February 14 14:03 GMT (UK) »
Have you tried the index to marriages 1808-1845 for 1st Presbyterian Church, Bangor  as their clergy helped start Conlig Presbyterian Church in 1845/46. Ros Davies gives details of the1st Presbyterian Church, Bangorin Main St., in Corporation townland in the south of TownBangor, [which helped start ] Conlig church to suit the expanding population.
Records in PRONI MIC1P/23; CR/3/4 - Baptisms, 1852-88 and 1895-1923; marriages, 1808- 1932; index to marriages, 1808-45; title deeds and leases, 1696-1868. No graveyard but memorials available; email me for a look-up;North of Ireland FHS http://www.nifhs.org has Baptisms 1839-1923; Marriages 1808-1932.

I am starting to assume you live in Glasgow and may never have visited Conlig. Its two and half miles eachway between Bangor and Newtownards.  About 3 miles from Drumawhey  From Belfast I cycled to the area in my early teens about 1949 with a chum and a hammer in my back pack as I had heard it was an old lead mine, and we decided to go mining!  I believe the mine area is known as Whitespots.  We soon got tired looking around at a rather drab, untidy overgrown place with some small brambles and weeds etc. I had rested my bike on a boulder that was about 2 foot square .  I moved my bike onto the ground and sat on the boulder, chatting about girls.  We decided to go home, I picked my hammer out and gave the boulder a smash in disappointment with the whole place. The boulder split apart with the two halves giving blinding flashes as the galena silver mirrored crystals caught the sun. We thought we had gone into fantasy land. It was dazzling for a few exciting seconds after I calmed down, I couldn’t pick up even a half of the boulder it was so heavy.  I think I hunted for diamonds thinking they might be within it.  The image stays with me. I ended up only knocking off a little corner  and a day or two later made my first crystal radio set.  Five years later I passed my year 2 Geology  at university but failed at everything else and stupidly left university. They are planning to open part of this surface of the mine, as a tourist spot with a new shaft to the old mine. It’s close to the Somme museum.

Back to familyhistory, someone suggested to me the church minutes books might contain mention of a death or even burial of some of the congregation. As might just the estate papers of the area which is the Clandeboy Estate, perhaps naming their cobbler.

If I was following up GenesReunited, I would encourage you to contact the tree owners that contain Gunning in Co Down, in order of priority 1. Graham who knows Portaferry Gunnings back to 1755. 2. Helen who knows Gunnings in Co Down from 1804. Both of these and indeed the other Co Down contributors may have kept Gunning facts that isn’t their family.

Back in Griffiths, I notice Gunnion in Conlig townland as distinct to the Village itself, and would be worrying about a hearing or  transcription error and then its possible another Gunning to your list.   When I looked up your William Gunning he has a house office  yard and small garden but his valuation is seven times higher than all his village neighbours! Outside the village in the townland its different with higher valuations. So I ask you why was his property so valued. I didnt look it up in the map section, which might give clues or worth a visit! ?

Is it time to admit that Gracey 'means' Cobbler in Scotland

Anyway in the meantime keep slugging at finding all possible pre-registration records JimG
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