Author Topic: John Roberts TUTHILL, aka STEPHENS, immigration NSW c 1853  (Read 2957 times)

Offline sugarfizzle

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John Roberts TUTHILL, aka STEPHENS, immigration NSW c 1853
« on: Tuesday 18 March 14 06:50 GMT (UK) »
Hoping that someone can help me.

John Roberts Tuthill was born c 1820 in London, married there in 1841, had at least 5 children up until 1852/1853.  He was also known as John Roberts Stephens.

He came to New South Wales c 1853 without his wife, and started a new family with Anne/Annie, first known child Henry Archibald Stephens, born 30 July 1854, Sydney, NSW.  He went on to become a respected billiard table maker, as was his brother who remained in England.

Related threads

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=635467.0

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=680889.0

I have tried so far unsuccessfully to find his immigration record.

NOT, from http://www.records.nsw.gov.au,
STEPHENS John, Lady Clarke, Dec 1841, Farm labourer from Devon, Wife Mary Ann, 29, House servant, Son John 6 and other family members
STEPHENS John 29 Ship Sarah 1849 and wife Mary Ann 37, Coachman from Gibraltar, wife House servant from London
STEPHENS John 23  Ship Panama 1850 and wife Ann 20, Farm labourer from Dunass, Clare, wife House servant from Holyhead Anglesey
STEPHENS John 27 Ellenborough 1853 and wife Lucy R, Blacksmith from Cornwall, wife from Guernsey Island
STEPHENS John 30 Lady Ann 1854 and wife Martha 20, Farm labourer from Davidstowe, Cornwall, wife from Redruth, Cornwall

Nothing at all comes up with TUTHILL/variations, but now I have located the year more accurately to 1853, I wonder if there is anywhere else I can look?  I have very little knowledge of Australian research, my family mostly from UK.

Margaret
STEER, mainly Surrey, Kent; PINNOCKS/HAINES, Gosport, Hants; BARKER, mainly Broadwater, Sussex; Gosport, Hampshire; LAVERSUCH, Micheldever, Hampshire; WESTALL, London; HYDE, Croydon, Surrey; BRIGDEN, Hadlow, Kent and London; TUTHILL/STEPHENS, London
WILKINSON, Leeds, Yorkshire and Liverpool; WILLIAMSON, Liverpool; BEARE, Yeovil, Somerset; ALLEN, Kent and London; GORST, Liverpool; HOYLE, mainly Leeds, Yorkshire

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov

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Offline Nettie

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Re: John Roberts TUTHILL, aka STEPHENS, immigration NSW c 1853
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 25 March 14 09:17 GMT (UK) »
Hi Margaret, you have tagged this thread immigration NSW. Are you absolutely sure that NSW was his destination when leaving the UK? I know he seemed to settle there and have children quite quickly, but could he have come into any other Australian port, couldn't he?
Researching: Cronin / Nolan - Gortadrislig, Kerry
Finn/Clifford - Callinafercy and Scort, Kerry
Spillane - Milltown
Also:- Byrne / Tyrrell - Dublin

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Offline Nettie

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Re: John Roberts TUTHILL, aka STEPHENS, immigration NSW c 1853
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 25 March 14 09:45 GMT (UK) »
Hi again, I've tried to read through your various links and I think I have confused myself, I don't know how you do it...between the two families and the name changes.

Anyway, it all of that, I could not see if you had a date of death for the John who went to Australia and changed his name.

I have found this:http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13698376?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits=

Stephens - October 2 [1888] at his residence No. 3 Nithsdale Street, [Sydney] John Stephens, billiard table maker, aged 67 English papers please copy.

If you enter 3 Nithsdale Street, Sydney, New South Wales in Google Maps you'll see the street and note it's located nearly in the heart of Sydney.

Death of his wife Anne - October 3 1885
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13732440?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits=

Death of his brother in England:
On the 3rd January, at Barclay-street, Somers Town, Mr.
W. Stephens aged 50, of the firm of Hopkins and Stephens,
billiard table makers, of Long Acre, London, and brother of John
Stephens, billiard table maker, of this city, after three days 
illness, leaving a widow and large family to mourn their loss. 
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13103593?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits=

Memorial notice in 1889
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13732440?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits=


It also seems John became insolvent in 1867
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13157546?searchTerm=john%20stephens%20billiard&searchLimits=

Apologies if you already have this information.
Researching: Cronin / Nolan - Gortadrislig, Kerry
Finn/Clifford - Callinafercy and Scort, Kerry
Spillane - Milltown
Also:- Byrne / Tyrrell - Dublin

Offline sugarfizzle

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Re: John Roberts TUTHILL, aka STEPHENS, immigration NSW c 1853
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 25 March 14 16:36 GMT (UK) »
Nettie, Thanks for that, I did have those links, it was the notice of his brother's death in London which led me to the connection between the 2 families - because of the name change I don't know, there may be other siblings waiting to be found.  If they had continued to use the name of Tuthill throughout, it would have been a relatively easy search.

>Hi again, I've tried to read through your various links and I think I have confused myself, I >don't know how you do it...between the two families and the name changes.

It is extremely difficult, I confuse myself sometimes, so explaining it to other people doesn't always come across very well.

>Anyway, it all of that, I could not see if you had a date of death for the John who went to >Australia and changed his name.

I sent off for his death certificate, as I was hoping that his father's name woiuld be on it.  However, it is not included -

John Thurston STEPHENS
Death - 2 Oct 1888
Place - 3 Nithsdale Street, Sydney, NSW
Occupation Billiard Table Maker
Male, aged 66
Place of birth England, 35 years in NSW
Father deceased, occupation Builder

> Are you absolutely sure that NSW was his destination when leaving the UK? I know he seemed > to settle there and have children quite quickly, but could he have come into any other
> Australian port, couldn't he?

I am uncertain of when and where he landed in Australia.  Last child born in London was William Stephens, c 1852 - 1853 - possibly may not have been John's child.  Death certificate indicates arrival in NSW c 1852 - 1853, so possibly a bit of leeway there for him to go somewhere else first.

Where do I look for other immigration records?

Margaret
STEER, mainly Surrey, Kent; PINNOCKS/HAINES, Gosport, Hants; BARKER, mainly Broadwater, Sussex; Gosport, Hampshire; LAVERSUCH, Micheldever, Hampshire; WESTALL, London; HYDE, Croydon, Surrey; BRIGDEN, Hadlow, Kent and London; TUTHILL/STEPHENS, London
WILKINSON, Leeds, Yorkshire and Liverpool; WILLIAMSON, Liverpool; BEARE, Yeovil, Somerset; ALLEN, Kent and London; GORST, Liverpool; HOYLE, mainly Leeds, Yorkshire

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov

Offline judb

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Re: John Roberts TUTHILL, aka STEPHENS, immigration NSW c 1853
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 25 March 14 23:47 GMT (UK) »
I see that you are looking for his father's name.  If you do not already have it you can buy a copy of the London marriage certificate which should/may give John's father's name.  Cost is GBP9.25 which includes postage. Usually arrives in 10-14 days.

John Robert TUTHILL
Date of Registration:   Oct-Nov-Dec 1841
Registration district:   St Martin in the Fields
Vol 1, p 122

http://www.gro.gov.uk/GRO/content/certificates/default.asp

Judith
DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

UK Census information Crown Copyrightt, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline sugarfizzle

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Re: John Roberts TUTHILL, aka STEPHENS, immigration NSW c 1853
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 26 March 14 05:53 GMT (UK) »

Judith, thanks for that.

I think I have proved that John Roberts Tuttle, baptised 1820, was the same man as John Robert Tuthill who married Lydia Eleanor Wilson in 1841 and had several children in St Martin's, London, England.  Thus his father was Robert Tuthill, who died in 1845 at 14, Catherine Street, Strand, which was where John Thurston, billiard table maker, operated from. 
The certificate should back this up, but it is not now my main objective.

It is proving (other than to myself) that he was the same person who emigrated to Australia that I want to do.  Lots of evidence to support this, but the passenger list with his name on would be the final piece of evidence required.

Nettie has suggested that he may have arrived somewhere other than NSW, and I have had a look at some other lists, but really don't know where to look effectively.

Margaret
STEER, mainly Surrey, Kent; PINNOCKS/HAINES, Gosport, Hants; BARKER, mainly Broadwater, Sussex; Gosport, Hampshire; LAVERSUCH, Micheldever, Hampshire; WESTALL, London; HYDE, Croydon, Surrey; BRIGDEN, Hadlow, Kent and London; TUTHILL/STEPHENS, London
WILKINSON, Leeds, Yorkshire and Liverpool; WILLIAMSON, Liverpool; BEARE, Yeovil, Somerset; ALLEN, Kent and London; GORST, Liverpool; HOYLE, mainly Leeds, Yorkshire

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov

Offline sparrett

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Re: John Roberts TUTHILL, aka STEPHENS, immigration NSW c 1853
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 26 March 14 06:41 GMT (UK) »
The certificate of death you speak of


 
I sent off for his death certificate, as I was hoping that his father's name woiuld be on it.  However, it is not included -

John Thurston STEPHENS
Death - 2 Oct 1888
Place - 3 Nithsdale Street, Sydney, NSW
Occupation Billiard Table Maker
Male, aged 66
Place of birth England, 35 years in NSW
Father deceased, occupation Builder

 
Margaret


You have not told us the information in the other columns.

When and where married
To whom
Number of children living and dead.
Where buried
Informant
And more


Is this because the columns are left empty?
 

Do you have a transcription of Anne STEPHENS' death in 1885?
As you may or may not know, a transcription will cost  a good deal less than the original.

REG 2001 Yr 1885 STEPHENS Anne   
Parents John &   Anne
At SYDNEY

I believe the certificate could  help you in listing information regarding her background, maiden name etc.

I suspect that focussing on the immigration record may  disappoint as many lists of immigration are not available or simply lost :(

Sue
 
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline judb

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Re: John Roberts TUTHILL, aka STEPHENS, immigration NSW c 1853
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 26 March 14 06:46 GMT (UK) »
I think, the common-ness (? ::) ) of the names John and STEPHENS will make it very difficult, if not impossible to track down this man's arrival.  As you would know there were no passports at that time and you could change your name very easily so he may even have travelled under another name altogether.  I had a quick look at the Victorian Immigration indexes on PROV but nothing positive there.  The time frame for his immigration is reasonably short, especially if he was the father of the child born England, 1852.

I note the name THURSTON is used as his second name on the death information, and also for his and Lydia's child baptised 1843.  Perhaps he used this name, or ROBERTS.  I note also that his brother William is using the name STEPHENS by the census of 1841, while John uses TUTHILL for his marriage later in 1841.

It is certainly a conundrum and I agree with you that it looks 99.9% certain that this is the same man, especially with the notice found by Nettie.

Judith
DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

UK Census information Crown Copyrightt, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline giblet

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Re: John Roberts TUTHILL, aka STEPHENS, immigration NSW c 1853
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 26 March 14 06:49 GMT (UK) »
I have tried so far unsuccessfully to find his immigration record.

If he was a unassisted passenger you may not find a record of his arrival in the usual way.
Have you tried Trove, the newspapers? Sometimes they have people who arrived unassisted.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper