John Roberts TUTHILL, aka STEPHENS, immigration NSW c 1853

[sparrett]

This news item-Sydney morning Herald 23 May 1882 suggests the Henry Archibald you mention may not have been the first birth to John and Ann

The only other possibility is the interpretation that William H T was the eldest surviving
son Do you know when Henry Archibald died?

STEPHENS-STARK-May l8, at the residence of the bride's parent, by the Rev. W. Bourne, William H. T., eldest son of J. Stephens, billiard table maker, Sydney, to Matilda Marian, sixth daughter of Robert Stark, Darlinghurst. English papers please copy.

Sue

[sparrett]

In browsing the newspaper items listed by some of your other helpers and reflecting on those I see myself, I am noticing that relations between John and his connections in England seemed very cordial.

He announced in the Sydney paper the death of his brother William and the item I list above invites English papers to copy.

Is this the situation one would expect from a man who deserted his wife and children

Sue 

[judb]

Just some random thoughts:

Did he marry Anne?  You say he 'started a new life' with her and I'm not seeing a marriage in NSW 1850-1860 for them; would have been interesting to see what he put on the marraige certificate.

Is this one of their children? 
It's interesting to see the initials and may be worth buying a transcription if it is them.
1866 #833   
John R T STEPHENS, parents: John R T,  Ann, registered SYDNEY

Sue, it looks probable that Henry died 1870, at or near Carcoar.
3233/1870 #3233
Henry STEPHENS, parents John, Annie   reg CARCOAR 

Judith

[sparrett]

Just some random thoughts:

Did he marry Anne?  You say he 'started a new life' with her and I'm not seeing a marriage in NSW 1850-1860 for them; would have been interesting to see what he put on the marraige certificate.

Is this one of their children? 
It's interesting to see the initials and may be worth buying a transcription if it is them.
1866 #833   
John R T STEPHENS, parents: John R T,  Ann, registered SYDNEY

Sue, it looks probable that Henry died 1870, at or near Carcoar.
3233/1870 #3233
Henry STEPHENS, parents John, Annie   reg CARCOAR 

Judith

The lack of marriage evidence is one reason that I thought her death certificate would be of interest and why I asked for the marriage information on the DC of John.

A maiden name may help.

Yes Judith, it looks like Henry died in 1870

Sue

[Nettie]

Looking through other inbound Australian immigration / travel lists covering different states in the same time period there appear to be no recorded Tuthill possibilities. However, there are countless John Stephens / Stevens. I really don't think you'd be able to narrow yours down as a man who can change his name could have just have easily changed his age.

His DC stating 35 years in NSW may be as close as you get and that information is only as reliable as the knowledge of the informant.

Getting his and Anne's MC and children's records may be the only way to go.

Have you been able to get a copy of the 'youngest' English child to see if he is named as the father?

[sparrett]

Getting his and Anne's MC and children's records may be the only way to go.

There is no recorded marriage found at this stage.

The full details of death certificates of the two parties will be the only possible sources of recorded information at this point.

Sue

[sugarfizzle]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions/further information.

Sue, I have a transcription of John Thurston Stephens death certificate, I was really hoping that would give me lots of information.  However, the only useful information is what I have already given. 

TRANSCRIBER'S NOTE: NO MARRIAGE DETAILS OR CHILDREN ARE RECORDED IN THIS REGISTER, OTHER THAN THE INFORMANT

>>Do you have a transcription of Anne STEPHENS' death in 1885?

Hopefully that should give her maiden name, and all the details that John's should have had on it.  Some online trees have her maiden name as Keast.

Judith
>>I note the name THURSTON is used as his second name on the death information, and also for his and Lydia's child baptised 1843.  Perhaps he used this name, or ROBERTS.  I note also that his brother William is using the name STEPHENS by the census of 1841, while John uses TUTHILL for his marriage later in 1841.

I have looked for John Tuthill, John Roberts, John Stephens, Robert John, Stephen John etc, etc, but not for Thurston, I must admit.

The Thurston is from his mother, Mary Thurston, brother of John of Catherine Street, Strand.
It appears to have been added after John went to Australia, perhaps for a bit of added kudos when the firm was failing in 1867.

giblet
>> If he was a unassisted passenger you may not find a record of his arrival in the usual way.
Have you tried Trove, the newspapers? Sometimes they have people who arrived unassisted.

Thanks for your suggestion.  Most of my info about this family is from Trove, didn't know they had some passenger arrivals as well, I'll take a look.

Sue
>> This news item-Sydney morning Herald 23 May 1882 suggests the Henry Archibald you mention may not have been the first birth to John and Ann

>> The only other possibility is the interpretation that William H T was the eldest surviving
son.  Do you know when Henry Archibald died?

I take it to mean the eldest surviving child.

>> In browsing the newspaper items listed by some of your other helpers and reflecting on those I see myself, I am noticing that relations between John and his connections in England seemed very cordial.  Is this the situation one would expect from a man who deserted his wife and children

If you are estranged from your wife, you are not estranged from your brother, necessarily.

Judith
>> Did he marry Anne?  You say he 'started a new life' with her and I'm not seeing a marriage in NSW 1850-1860 for them; would have been interesting to see what he put on the marriage certificate.

No marriage found.  If he didn't divorce Lydia, he may have been unwilling to commit bigamy.

Is this one of their children?
It's interesting to see the initials and may be worth buying a transcription if it is them.
1866 #833   
John R T STEPHENS, parents: John R T,  Ann, registered SYDNEY

Yes, he is one of the children, and one of those I worry about the most.  Full name apparently John Robert Thurston Stephens.  Considering his first born son was baptised as John Thurston Tuthill, known as Stephens ----

Nettie
>> Getting his and Anne's MC and children's records may be the only way to go.

Do children's records have grandparent's name and occupation listed?  Unless so, don't think the children's birth certs would give any useful info, for me.

Nettie
>> I really don't think you'd be able to narrow yours down as a man who can change his name could have just have easily changed his age.

The family didn't change the name to hide or anything like that.  I have a theory as to the name change, but that is a topic in itself!!  My English family used the name of 'Tuthill' officially  - birth, marriage, death, but invariably used the name of Stephens in census and less formal records.  When I first started looking for my 2G grandmother, Ure Jane Tuthill, in census she was nowhere to be found.  There was a Ure Stephens, but it was quite a while before I made the connection.

>> Have you been able to get a copy of the 'youngest' English child to see if he is named as the father?
Haven't found his birth registration, no baptism found.  The other children had middle names, so were easier to trace.  But there again, would only prove/disprove the English side of the story.

It is relatively easy to track the wife and children left in England in census and other records.  Presumably relatively easy to track the husband and new family in Australia, if you know where to look and have access to records.  It is proving the connection which is more problematic.  But as far as I can see, nobody is going to take time and trouble to put a notice in a newspaper, with details of their brother's death, if he is not their brother. 
Therefore, John Thurston Stephens was my William Tuthill aka Stephen's brother. 

Thanks for all your input, gives me a few things to think about

Margaret

[sugarfizzle]

To all who have replied, Thank you very much.  I now accept that I am unlikely to find a passenger record for John.

However, I have found something nearly as good - I had another look at Trove, looking for a possible arrival announcement, as giblet suggested.  No luck as yet after a quick search, but I found the following advert -

5 Feb 1870, Australian Town and Country Journal (Sydney, NSW : 1870 - 1907)
J Stephens, Nephew of the late J Thurston, Billiard Tables Maker, 17, Hosking-place, Pitt-street north, Sydney.  New and second hand Billiard and Billiard Bagatelle Tables always on hand.  balls, Cues and Tips to order - Old Tables recovered - Orders promptly attended to.

'Hopkins and Stephens' also advertised themselves as nephews of the late John Thurston, I have a photograph of an old billiard table plate which claims them as such.  Ure Tuthill aka Stephens (married to 'Hopkins'), William Tuthill aka 'Stephens', and John Robert Thurston Tuthill aka Stephens were siblings, nephews and niece of John Thurston. 
Hopkins and Stephens both died in 1865, but their respective eldest sons, Richard John Thurston Hopkins and John Tuthill aka Stephens carried on in the business

Thank you once again for all your help.

Margaret
 

[sparrett]

Glad to hear you think you have made progress, Margaret, and best of luck in your searches.

Sue