Author Topic: Descendants of Peter CHARLES & Janet PORTEOUS/PORTER  (Read 5087 times)

Offline ScotinEngland

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Descendants of Peter CHARLES & Janet PORTEOUS/PORTER
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 16 August 18 15:05 BST (UK) »
Are you still researching Deskford Charles?

I am a direct descendant of Alexander Charles of Fordyce, which is very close to Cullen. He died 1879 aged 84 so was born 1794/5. I am interested in discovering if there is a link between the Charles family in Cullen and that in Fordyce. It seems quite likely given the locations and the relative rarity of the name.

Offline Fordyce

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Descendants of Peter CHARLES & Janet PORTEOUS/PORTER
« Reply #10 on: Friday 17 August 18 09:10 BST (UK) »
ScotinEngland, you'll know, of course, that Alexander Charles married Elspet Young 2 Jul 1826 Fordyce. I've found that that she almost certainly had an illegitimate child in 1820 by Walter Black at Ley, Fordyce, when she was in Moor of Glassaugh, Fordyce (source: Fordyce Kirk Sesssion). The child's name is unknown, but as far as I can tell it was not brought up by the father's family in Ley (Walter Black himself 'escaped' to Australia). Are you aware of such a child in your Charles family?

This turned up in my research in the parentage of my 4xgtgdmother Ann Young born abt 1757. Elspet Young was d/o John Young merchant in Cullen & Elspet Reid. John Young could be brother of my Ann Young.

I note that your Alexander Charles was a shoemaker in Fordyce. At the same time my gtgdfather John Geddes was also a shoemaker in Fordyce - he had a shop at Cotton Croft Fordyce - the 'shoppie' building is still there! I wonder, were they pals or competitors?

Offline ScotinEngland

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Descendants of Peter CHARLES & Janet PORTEOUS/PORTER
« Reply #11 on: Friday 17 August 18 14:17 BST (UK) »
Fordyce

Thank you. How very interesting. I had not previously been aware of Elspet's previous likely child. Fascinating how one learns these things two hundred years later. She was my gtgtgmother.

I know relatively little about Alexander, but perhaps he and your ancestor were partners?

I am interested in researching the history of the area in the C18 and C19. Assuming, from your name, that you have some local knowledge, are there any good local histories you can recommend?

Offline GR2

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,579
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Descendants of Peter CHARLES & Janet PORTEOUS/PORTER
« Reply #12 on: Friday 17 August 18 14:53 BST (UK) »
You have free on-line access to old maps of the area by using the National Library of Scotland maps website. You will also find on-line the late 18th century "The Statistical Account of Scotland", sometimes called the "Old Statistical Account" to distinguish it from the "New Statistical Account" of the 1840s. The entry for "Fordice" was written by the minister, James Lawtie, in 1790-91. 


Offline Fordyce

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Descendants of Peter CHARLES & Janet PORTEOUS/PORTER
« Reply #13 on: Friday 17 August 18 23:04 BST (UK) »
GR2 is spot on. I'd add, if you can get hold of copies:
- The History of Fordyce Academy (1592-1935) by Douglas G M'Lean MA (pub 1936).
- Deskford by John Aitken (pub Banffshire Field Club 2016). Much is generically applicable to Fordyce.
- James Wilson Journal ed Peter Hillis (Scottish History Society 2008). He farmed in Deskford but there is plenty about the wider area.
It will be difficult to track down a copy. There is no mention of the surname Charles though in any of their indexes.

Regarding Elspet, I've re-reviewed my notes and I'd say it is certain it was your Elspet Young who had the child (in Muir of Glassaugh). John Young was in Cullen when they married in 1774 until at least 1787 before they moved to Mains of Glassaugh (1792) then Muir of Glassaugh (1794) - their son James was still farmer there in 1841 before moving to Burnside, Fordyce dying there in 1857.

Your Alexander Charles would have been a Shoemaker from, say, 1820 on. He became a Master Shoemaker at some stage, so he would have employed others.

My John Geddes was born in 1814 and married 1838 (when he was at Edingight, Grange in an unknown capacity, although many years later it was reported that he was then a journeyman bootmaker at Thornton, Grange). By 1841 he was a shoemaker (by 1851 a master shoemaker). He could have been apprenticed under Alexander Charles anytime from say 1828 on. However, the 1841 census has 22 shoemakers in Fordyce (incl Portsoy) over the age of 35 so the probability is low.
John Geddes had a much younger brother born abt1834 and named Charles. This is the first time the forename Charles turns up in the family, so I wonder if this was in recognition of Alexander Charles? Rather unlikely - he was the 13th child and 7th son, so maybe the parents just ran out of names - but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

There's plenty of information on these Youngs and your Charles easily enough available from the usual sources. It's earlier that things get frustratingly foggy. I take it you're aware that your Alexander Charles was illegitimate son of an unidentified soldier surname Charles. Being a soldier he very likely would have been stationed in Cullen. There's a record of an Alexander Charles being baptised 23 Jun 1799 in the Episcopal Church in Portsoy - there's no mention of his parents but it might be worthwhile consulting the actual records to see what they say.

What I have found (in Fordyce Kirk Session) is that on 5 Apr 1795 Alexander Charles in Cullen was accused by Jannet Minty in Portsoy on being the father of her child (he denied it - repeatedly - of course! - and it was escalated upwards). This is the very same time that your Alexander Charles was being born. Was naughty Alexander Charles, the soldier father of your Alexander Charles? I think it's likely. It's the sort of thing an aggrieved mother would do to 'point the finger': to name her child after the denying father.  Maybe the Cullen Kirk Session (which I don't have) might show something.

Seems you've got one or two things to chew over!

Offline ScotinEngland

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 4
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Descendants of Peter CHARLES & Janet PORTEOUS/PORTER
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 18 August 18 14:16 BST (UK) »
Thank you so much, Fordyce. You are a real fountain of knowledge and have been hugely helpful. I am extremely grateful to you. I shall seek out the literature you suggest and read up on the history of the area with keen interest.

Yes, I knew there was a mystery about the paternity of Alexander Charles of Fordyce and it was partly because of this that I enquired about Deskford Charles (such a memorable name). My family lore has long had it that there was a link with people in Cullen. Your suggestion - that Alexander's father could have been another Alexander - looks very plausible to me and could potentially represent a link to Cullen, especially as, I believe, one of Deskford's brothers was an Alexander.

I can see that Alexander could have been stationed at Cullen. Interestingly (to me at any rate) when I visited the area a few years ago I saw a C18 print titled 'the barracks at Portsoy' - portraying a Georgian building down by the harbour. I assume that all the ports would have had some soldiers/militia stationed at that time because of fear of invasion by the French (Revolutionary Wars and all that). One or other location would make sense.

I will research the records you suggest with great interest. Thank you again very much for your assistance. There has been a mystery in my part of the Charles family about the antecedents of Alexander of Fordyce which led to all sorts of speculation on the part of some of the more imaginative of my family. It has been puzzling me in an annoying way for forty years - my father knew something about it but did not pass on the stories because he thought they were nonsense. I think I now have an hypothesis as to what lay behind them which I will test. It is good to get these annoying questions out of one's head.

Fascinating that there were so many shoemakers in Fordyce - presumably it was a bit of a centre for the industry? I will read about the Fordyce Academy with interest as I know that some of my ancestors benefited from attending the school. At that time, I have heard it suggested, it was reputed to be among the best in Scotland?


Many thanks also to GR2. You have both of you given me invaluable help.

Offline Fordyce

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Descendants of Peter CHARLES & Janet PORTEOUS/PORTER
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 21 August 18 09:07 BST (UK) »
ScotinEngland, you're welcome!

It's pretty clear that there was a bit of a Charles presence in the area over quite a period back to the 1650s (per IGI).  Moving forward, John Charles & Katherine Rob in Portsoy had Katharine bpt 1-12-1737 and James 19-7-1740. More relevant though is that "Mr Peter Charles gardiner in Cullen & Jannet Portes" [sic] had Alexander born 17-3-1771 - he must be in the running to be your Alexander's mysterious father. It's significant that Peter Charles was upped in status by being called 'Mr'.

Several witnesses were also 'Mr'. The OPR image I have isn't very good but one of them seems to be Mr Thomas Duncan in Blairock - and that's in Deskford parish. Another is Mr John Duncan in Broom (in Fordyce parish). Both also witnessed children of James Young & Isobel Findlay (the gdparents fo your Elspet Young). In 1763 and 1764, for their seventh and eighth children, he too is suddenly elevated to Mr James Young, as are most of the witnesses.

I'm keeping track of all this, of course, in the hope that it might lead to me identifying the parentage of my Ann Young who was born abt1757. By rights, she ought to be a sister of your John Young (who witnessed one of her Geddes children in 1792), but I cannot see how she can fit. At present in my tree, my Ann Young is instead tentatively a niece (not a daughter) of your James Young & Isobel Findlay, being also a sister of an Alexander Young h/o Margaret Christie.

The Youngs are off-topic for this thread. I suggest, if you want to continue discussing Youngs you start a new thread and we go from there, alternatively send me a PM with your email address.

(I've nearly got sidetracked because one of my lines is Porteous in Midlothian, leading back to James Porteous & Jean Porteous who marr 8-8-1712 Inveresk...)

Re shoemakers, well everybody needed their boots, so there's nothing exceptional about Fordyce. It was neither a centre of boots, nor an industrial centre - just a local service. But Fordyce Academy was indeed reputed to be the best.