GT grandmother expecting baby while husband in Hereford Asylum ........

[sophiewilliams]

 

I have battled with this mystery for a while and wondered if the good people on Rootschat could help me please?  Family have handed down that my grandmother, Kathleen, was illegitimate and that her father had been a man from "the Forest" (Forest of Dean).

As the title suggests, my GT gandma, Alice got pregnant while her husband was in the Asylum.  His death cert tells me he died in 1916 and had had his condition (paralysis of the insane) for two years - back to 1914.  I have sent feelers out and am waiting a reply about admission date into Burghill Asylum ..... His name was George Bick.

My grandmother, Kathleen, was born in June 1914, conception then Sept/Oct 1913.  This is why it would be good to find admission date .....

 George and Alice married in Foy (separate post!) In 1899 and had two legitimate daughters Ada and Alice May.  When George died in 1916, Alice married a David Waters in Sept 1917 in Ross Registry Office. They lived in Weston Under Penyard and Kathleen went to the school there.

Kathleen's school records at Weston under Penyard tell me she had a father/guardian David Waters .,. Her surname was always Bick like her sisters.  I don't think marriage legitimised a child at that time ... If she was David's that is.

Kathleen has no birth certificate, she was never registered (caused probs later with getting a passport) and doesn't appear to have been christened either.  Her marriage certificate has two dashes under father and his occupation.  If David was her father .... Why do that?

Another side to the story is that Alice threw David out and he went to Ross workhouse and from there to Ledbury and Bromyard workhouses finally spending his last days in Leominster old priory hospital.  I can't even find his burial site even after paying for a search.

I have put an article in Weston  News to see if anyone can remember hearing about this family.

All I want is to know is who Kathleen's father was or maybe Alice has taken that secret to the grave with her!

Is there anything I have missed or could be looking at??

Many thanks for reading this essay!

[sophiewilliams]

PS .... David came from Dancing Green on 1911 Census.

[avm228]

Hi there.

Not sure if you are aware, but "paralysis of the insane" was the term used for the degenerative changes arising in late-stage syphilis.  George would have been suffering from syphilis for many years before the 2-year "paralysis" stage indicated on the death certificate. This could sometimes lead to low fertility in a marriage.

Unfortunately it is very unlikely indeed that there will be evidence of the identity of Kathleen's father.  As a child of a married woman the law would have presumed her to be George's offspring had there been a birth registration, though where it was obvious the husband could not be the father due to his absence or indisposition one sometimes finds paternal details left blank.

As you say, there doesn't seem to be anywhere near sufficient evidence to conclude that David was her natural father. You are correct that it was not until 1927 that subsequent marriage of the parents was capable of legitimising a child in England & Wales. My hunch would be that if David had been her natural father the family story about "a man from the Forest" wouldn't be as vague as it is

Sadly these things often have to be written off as a mystery, but like you I would be exploring any surviving records on George to see whether there are any clues.  There may be just a distant prospect that something relevant appeared in the local papers (see the British Newspaper Archive) but I wouldn't get your hopes up!

[sophiewilliams]

Thank you so much for your reply.  Syphilis gosh didn't know that.  That was a shock.  I just can't leave it alone. Thanks so much for your help. I will not be defeated!!

Incidentally, it was never talked about in my mum's house when she was a little girl ....

[sophiewilliams]

Following on from my first post on this issue .....

The illegitimacy issue has got me thinking .....

Can anyone help with this or confirm?

Alice presumably gave my grandmother, Kathleen, her surname of Bick because that was her married name?  How bizarre that George should have a child named with his surname that wasn't his?  People knew that her husband wasn't on the scene (don't think they knew he was in the asylum!) And she apparently didn't hide the fact Kathleen wasn't his ... Kathleen also wasn't christened.  It almost is more confusing when illigitimacy happens in a marriage?

Could do with clarification on illegitimacy and marriage etc if anyone could help?

[avm228]

As I said at reply 2, the legal presumption would be that the child of a married woman was attributable to her husband.

I don't see it as surprising that Kathleen's surname was Bick, given that at the time of her birth her mother's surname was Bick. There was no "giving" of a surname. On a birth certificate at that time the only given names for the child were the first and middle names.

[sophiewilliams]

Except that George was in the asylum and everyone knew it...but I do see what you are saying.

[heywood]

Except that George was in the asylum and everyone knew it...but I do see what you are saying.

But it wouldn't make any difference as Alice's name was Bick. You could say that Alice was then stuck with the name after her marriage. 

[sophiewilliams]

Yes I see what you mean.