Author Topic: Hereditary Title for John Gordon Douglas ?  (Read 9846 times)

Offline LaytonLily

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Hereditary Title for John Gordon Douglas ?
« on: Thursday 29 May 14 17:16 BST (UK) »
Researching for a friend.   She thinks the older brother of her great-grandfather - who was William Wallace Douglas  -  named John Gordon Douglas, inherited a title, which was passed on his  eldest son.  It seems in 1883 and 1895 John Gordon Douglas was living in Edinburgh.   She does not know the name of the son that was supposed to have inherited.    John Gordon Douglas was perhaps born something like 1840 - 1850.

She also was told by her father that two of the daughters of William Wallace Douglas were presented at court - they were Helen Wallace Douglas (1874)  and  Lilias Monteith Douglas (1876).

Can anyone provide any information on this please, or advise where to look ?

Many thanks
ASTON, Birmingham : TWIST, B.ham: HUNT, B.ham: LAYTON, Worcestershire: LAYTON, B.ham: BISHOP, Leic.: TYSALL, B.ham: BURLEY,B.ham: SCOTT,B.ham: FISHER, B.ham : PRICHARD,Wales: BEARD,Worc. : SCHREDER, USA

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,074
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Re: Hereditary Title for John Gordon Douglas ?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 29 May 14 18:23 BST (UK) »
I had a look on www.thepeerage.com but did not find a John Gordon Douglas listed there. Nor a William Wallace Douglas.

There is no listing of a Helen Wallace Douglas in 1874 in the IGI at https://familysearch.org/search/collection/igi . Nor is there a Lilias Monteith Douglas, though I wouldn't expect to find a birth in 1876 on the IGI in any case. Nor is there a birth of either a *el*n Walla* Douglas or a Lil*as M*nt* Douglas in the index at Scotland's People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. Nor does FreeBMD http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl have a birth of a Lilias or Lillias Douglas or any Douglas with a middle name of Monteith between 1870 and 1900.

However there is a report in 'The Times' of a Drawing Room held by HRH The Princess of Wales on 15 March 1900. One of the debutantes was Miss Lilias Douglas, presented by her mother Mrs Archibald Douglas. So we do have one single solid fact - there was a Lilias Douglas whose father was Archibald Douglas. She would have been born in the early 1880s and she was indeed presented at court.

To be presented, you had to be presented by a lady who had herself been presented. If for some reason you had not been presented as a debutante in your teenage years, you could be presented after your marriage.

A Mrs Archibald Douglas was presented at Court by Mrs Frederick Bedford on 5 March 1890. On 16 May 1893 Mrs Archibald Douglas presented Miss Isabel Douglas. There was no report (or if there was the search failed to find it) of the presentation of a Miss Helen Douglas.

The IGI lists the baptism of John Gordon Crawford Douglas to George Douglas and Mary Pickering in Kelso in 1837. He was the third of nine children of this couple, all baptised in Kelso, and not including a William.

So what definite facts do you have about your friend's Douglas family?
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline MonicaL

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 32,556
  • Girl with firewood, Morar 1910 - MEM Donaldson
    • View Profile
Re: Hereditary Title for John Gordon Douglas ?
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 29 May 14 18:38 BST (UK) »
Just adding this other post for background www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=688211.0

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,074
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Re: Hereditary Title for John Gordon Douglas ?
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 29 May 14 19:05 BST (UK) »
I now see that I have been wasting my time looking for them in Britain, then.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=682540.msg5269747#msg5269747
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


Offline LaytonLily

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Hereditary Title for John Gordon Douglas ?
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 29 May 14 19:46 BST (UK) »
I am always very grateful for the amazing help / information that people provide on this website.  And always say so.  Often.

The article referred to in the last reply posting might be 'tongue in cheek' but I find it rather upsetting and insulting.  Often a request is made in good faith, and there is  not very much information to hand.  I said I would try to help a FH contact who lives in Canada.   So I only have the information available that she has provided.   It is only when I have tried every avenue on a particular FH problem, and failed, that I turn to Roots.web and know the people who respond are usually most helpful and generous, and I am very grateful.   I am amazed at how knowledgable folk are, finding information that I have spent a long time searching for and failing.

I posted the previous query about William Wallace Douglas - and have been grateful for the replies I have received on that - but although he went to Trinidad, and his children were born there, he was originally in Scotland, as was his brother, and I don't think his brother did leave Scotland.    WWD's children seemed to go backward and forward between Trinidad and GB.     I certainly am not intending to duplicate work for others, but these are two separate queries.

I am intrigued by the finding of Miss Lillias Douglas being presented, so to speak,  I thought it was an unusual first name, but maybe it wasn't for those times.    Of course, Lillias who was my friend's grandmother, was the daughter of William Wallace Douglas not an Archibald, so I presume it is not the correct one.     I am impressed and grateful for research undertaken.

Of course, what so often happens in families, is events or happenings get passed on down the generations, that are half-truths, or heresay, or start off as being related as 'it might have happened like this' and then reaches the present day as it being a fact of something really taking place.   Sometimes there is a whiff or a hint of truth but a lot of make-believe in the story.

I am tenacious in trying to find information on family members and do not accept facts too readily until I have double-checked them and verified them if possible.  I have been doing family history research, for my own family and helping others with their families, for over 20years, and refute the allegations, even if meant 'tongue in cheeck'.
ASTON, Birmingham : TWIST, B.ham: HUNT, B.ham: LAYTON, Worcestershire: LAYTON, B.ham: BISHOP, Leic.: TYSALL, B.ham: BURLEY,B.ham: SCOTT,B.ham: FISHER, B.ham : PRICHARD,Wales: BEARD,Worc. : SCHREDER, USA

Offline hanes teulu

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,574
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Hereditary Title for John Gordon Douglas ?
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 29 May 14 20:14 BST (UK) »
At least the latest posts have confirmed I was possibly in the right "area" checking out Jamaica/Trinidad links with the name Douglas.

I had spotted a marriage of a Harriet Lillias Douglas, younger daughter of the late John Gordon Douglas, Bulowsminde, Wilton Road, Edinburgh and Douglas Lodge Machrihanish (Aberdeen Journal 31 Aug 1910).

1901 Census - there is a John G Douglas, age 62, Wilton Road, Edinburgh, Living on Own Means, born Jamaica. In the same household is Harriet L Douglas, age 15. There is a son, William A. S. Douglas, age 18 (is he the eldest?) born Trinidad. Also in the household is a servant born Machrihanish.

Family Search has a John Douglas bap 11 Oct 1840, Hanover, Cornwall, Jamaica, parents John and Ancilla (transcription - no image of original)

Did wonder if William Wallace Douglas was possibly the William Douglas, bap 28 May 1846, Metcalfe, Cornwall, Jamaica, parents John Douglas and Amelia Hare (Is Ancilla possibly a mistranscription of Amelia???)

Re Douglas Lodge, Machrihanish, found it on Google - quite impressive. 

Offline LaytonLily

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Hereditary Title for John Gordon Douglas ?
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 29 May 14 21:00 BST (UK) »
The findings for John Gordon Douglas I think are for the right person and interesting that his daughter has the name Lillias.  The names given I think are quite unusual and I thought would therefore be easy to find info on, but that has not been the case for me !   I would certainly want the name to be given as John Gordon Douglas or at least reference to other family members before I would feel convinced it was the correct one.    That is why, at the moment, I would be doubtful of the John Douglas baptised 1840 and the William Douglas baptised 1846 because my friend seemed convinced William Wallace Douglas was born in Scotland and went over to Trinidad as an adult - though who knows !
I am surprised at JGD's son being born in Trinidad because again, my friend felt JGD lived in Scotland.  Though I suppose they could have visited over there and the son was born at that time.

I can hopefully find the census entries you quote on A........

My friend was told that their side of the Douglas family was related to Lady Anne Georgina Douglas, daughter of Charles Douglas, Marquis of Queensbury and who married Charles Home Drummond (I have the marriage details) but quite how those links might be proved is beyond me !   There are Wills for both of them but they are Sealed so not sure if just anyone could get copies.

Many thanks for the information you found and provided.
ASTON, Birmingham : TWIST, B.ham: HUNT, B.ham: LAYTON, Worcestershire: LAYTON, B.ham: BISHOP, Leic.: TYSALL, B.ham: BURLEY,B.ham: SCOTT,B.ham: FISHER, B.ham : PRICHARD,Wales: BEARD,Worc. : SCHREDER, USA

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,074
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Re: Hereditary Title for John Gordon Douglas ?
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 29 May 14 21:08 BST (UK) »
There are Wills for both of them but they are Sealed so not sure if just anyone could get copies

Assuming you mean that there are wills in either Scotland or England, 'sealed' has nothing to do with a will being unavailable. It means that the person leaving the will had property in both England and Scotland and the will was either proved in England or confirmed in Scotland, and then the probate or confirmation was 'sealed' in the other jurisdiction, rather than having to go through the complete legal process all over again.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline MonicaL

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 32,556
  • Girl with firewood, Morar 1910 - MEM Donaldson
    • View Profile
Re: Hereditary Title for John Gordon Douglas ?
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 29 May 14 22:01 BST (UK) »

My friend was told that their side of the Douglas family was related to Lady Anne Georgina Douglas, daughter of Charles Douglas, Marquis of Queensbury and who married Charles Home Drummond (I have the marriage details) but quite how those links might be proved is beyond me !   There are Wills for both of them but they are Sealed so not sure if just anyone could get copies.


From www.thepeerage.com/p2035.htm

  Lady Anne Georgina Douglas was the daughter of Charles Douglas, 6th Marquess of Queensberry and Lady Caroline Scott. She married Charles Stirling-Home-Drummond-Moray, 9th of Blair Drummond and 20th of Abercairny, son of Henry Home-Drummond, 7th of Blair Drummond and Christian Moray, 18th of Abercairney, on 11 December 1845. She died on 28 November 1899.
      Her married name became Stirling-Home-Drummond-Moray.
Children of Lady Anne Georgina Douglas and Charles Stirling-Home-Drummond-Moray, 9th of Blair Drummond and 20th of Abercairny

    Caroline Frances Stirling-Home-Drummond-Moray+
    Lt.-Col. Henry Edward Stirling Home Drummond of Blair Drummond b. 15 Sep 1846, d. 16 May 1911
    Captain William Augustus Stirling-Home-Drummond-Moray, 20th of Abercairny+ b. 12 Apr 1852, d. 6 Mar 1939


If you click on the link for ' Charles Douglas, 6th Marquess of Queensberry', he only seemed to have had girls, or at least no male/sons showing there.

Monica

Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk