Shadford, Essex (?)

[LouiseB31]

Valda

Thanks for this, great stuff

I will be going on a Tuesday as it happens, so I can get there at about 3pm and then have a good four hours before they turf me out.

Charles was still in the army when he died, aged 51. So there wont be any discharge papers or pension papers.

What I would like to see is a document showing where he went, and when, during his service, although I reckon I pretty much know - he had a child in every barracks he was stationed in I think.

And I would of course like to see any joining papers that might show where he lived, where he was born, who his parents were, anything like that.

Which of these two are "attestation" papers? And am I kidding myself that the first of the two will exist?

Regards Louise

(You are helping me on lots of threads simultaneously, thanks again)

[Valda]

It depends when he died whether his attestation papers have survived. Before 1883 the army destroyed ordinary soldiers papers if they didn't complete their service or were not invalided to a pension. After that attestation papers do survive regardless of length of service (but it may only be for soldiers who attested from 1883 onwards). I have one where the soldier asconded after only a few weeks. Attestation papers are what are filled in when the man attests (bears witness to) in other words signs on as a soldier. The attestation papers are filled in with the man's service history and contain a description of him and when he was discharged - so they are the same thing. The attestation papers were then used by the army to decide the man's pension and any medals he deserved. If he didn't survive long enough to gain a pension then the army didn't need the paperwork and so destroyed it.
If that is the case for Charles Hilton then the best way of following his army service would be through the quarterly pay books (muster books) of his regiment (and his actual battalion - there may be more than one so it helps if on any documentation you have on him it says his battalion, or it says where he was at the time, so you can narrow down which battalion he was in - there will probably be only two and they are not usually in the same place). The quarterly pay books should have some detail on him when he signed on, and further detail hopefully when he died, as well as how much he was paid each quarter, what his rank was and where he was (this is really all the muster books are, a list of men's names and their pay). I have not always found this extra detail on a man when he signed on or died entered into the muster book. If he was ailing his name might just disappear but you need to keep searching till his date of death just in case.
This is the research leaflet

http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=16&j=1

The quarterly muster books are usually joined together and so you might get 8 books covering a period of two years in one record. So if Charles was in the army for 12 years that is at least 6 different records you must order and work through and since you don't know what they look like or intially how to find the record and order it, that is queuing time perhaps at the help desk and then a time consuming trawl through the books (presuming you have ordered the right ones). Before that you have to check for his attestation papers just in case. Four hours is tight and you have to get your reader's ticket first ......
Until 1855 the Royal Artillery and the Royal Engineers were the responsibility Of the Ordnance Office not the War Office (that's what all the WOs stand for on the research leaflet - the government office which produced the record in the first place has its initials at the beginning to denote what class of record it is). I only mention this because despite coming under the War Office after 1855 the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers records are usually separate from the other regiments' records. There may also be something for Charles in casualty records - covering anyone who died, not just in battle, but I think they are not so good in this later period.
You find those mentioned in this research guide

http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=23

Whether you make any sense of these research guides or not (army  records take a bit of getting used to (I've bought the National Archives books to help me - they are very useful) I think it would be very useful to read the guides before you go to Kew.
The research assistants are very knowledgeable and helpful, but it helps them to help you if you have made a start at trying to get your head around the army records you need to search.
From the moment you order (computerised system) a record it will probably take about 30 minutes to arrive at your 'locker'. You can order three records at a time, but once they have arrived you can order more, so you want to try for a system (if you are going to go through the muster books) of always having some coming. However the evening times may be slower, with less staff and last orders I imagine are somewhere around 6 / 6.15?
Perhaps you can persuade someone to come with you to help, so you can achieve more in the time you have available?

The National Archives is a seriously big record office

'The earliest records held at TNA date from the Norman period and include the Domesday Book of 1086 and run on right up to the most recent times. Housed here are records of central government and the law courts along with army, navy, marines, air force, merchant seamen, police, customs & excise, migrants & naturalisations, RIC, prisoners, convicts, to name but a few. It would take too long here to fully describe all the subjects deposited at the PRO. Suffice to say that the hardcopy TNA Guide is over 5500 pages long and that shelf storage exceeds 100 miles!! It is one of the finest, most complete and envied archives in the world.'

And this extract doesn't even mention the shelving space taken up by all the necessary catalogues for these records so you can order them, so be as prepared as possible for your visit.

Regards
Valda

[LouiseB31]

Thanks Valda

Charles died in 1900 of alcoholism, I only mention this because it wasn't a war wound or work related.

By 1901 his widow and children had moved out of the barracks and into a place in town.

I dont know precisely when he joined up/attested but it would be in the 1870s I imagine. My first real knowledge is that he married in Athlone in 1879/80 when based in barracks there. This might have been his first posting.

I think he signed up at the barracks on the Isle of Sheppey - his granddaughter thought he came from there, only the census records show otherwise as you know.  So I wonder if he moved there after birth but before signing up.

I am not sure, from what you have said, whether his attestation papers will survive or not, he was definitely already in by 1883.

He wouldn't have had a pension, having died in harnass, but maybe his widow did?

Anyway, I will certainly have a look at the muster books. The one that covered his death would be the best place to start I assume, and then I could go back to the 1870s and look at them all to see if I can find the one he started in.  I might manage without the inbetween ones.

I am going on 20th September so will let you know after that date how I got on.

Regards

Louise

[Valda]

I presume you have not accessed Charles' marriage certificate? If you have what were the details of his father from that?
If you haven't accessed the marriage it could be in the Irish civil registration and or the overseas section indexes at the Family Records Centre - regimental registers where it may or may not be indexed (in which case not at FRC). The births are indexed but not the marriages. There is an overlapping index which doesn't give regiments called the Army chaplains returns, but this only goes up to 1880 (probably on 1837online overseas section). Otherwise you can try for a search since you know the regiment and roughly where and when the marriage took place. The General Registry Office might be able to produce a marriage certificate if it was an army marriage. However if the marriage took place in a Catholic church then you need to access the marriage through the Irish civil registration system (if in an Anglican church the same applies). They are cheaper than this country because they will do the sensible thing and produce a copy of the microfilmed details of the marriage for half the price of a certified copy.

http://www.groireland.ie/about_us.htm

I don't know of any army barracks on Sheppey, but I do know there was a large naval barracks at Sheerness.

There is a family of Hiltons in Stratford showing on the 1871 census (after Charles may have left and been posted out of the country). I cannot find them on the 1861 census.

RG10 1623 folio 183
88 Chapel St. Stratford West Ham  Essex   
Charles Hilton 48  Tamworth, Staffordshire, Head Married Silk printer
Sarah Hilton 50  Stratford, Essex,  Wife  Married Weaver
Sarah Hilton 19  Stratford, Essex, Daughter Silk weaver
Joseph Hilton 16 Stratford, Essex,  Son Chemicla factory labourer
Arthur Hilton 14  Stratford, Essex,  Son  Brushmaker
Emma Hilton 11 Stratford, Essex,  Daughter   
Annie Hilton 9 Stratford, Essex, Daughter   
William Hilton 5  Stratford, Essex, Son 

Same address for Charles in 1881 and at 94 Chapel Street in 1891. The returns for 1861 may be missing as the enumeration districts on the 1861 index go from 1 to 9 with 4, 6 and 8 missing.

On FreeBMD there is a birth registration for a Charles Hilton at about the right time (there are a lot of Hilton registrations in West Ham district).

HILTON, Charles
Record Type:    Births
Quarter:    June
Year:    1849
District:    West Ham 
County:    Essex Greater London
Volume:    7
Page:    214 

I don't know whether yor Charles Hilton's attestation papers will have survived or not, but I suggest you check for them first. As he was probably ailing by the time of his death he may not be on the muster books in 1900. He may have been transfered off these pay books into military hospital in which case the muster books may not mention him past that point.

Regards
Valda

[LouiseB31]

Valda

Yesterday I sent a fax to the GRO now in Roscommon, requesting a photocopy of my great great grandparents marriage entry. I dont know the year so have offered them two to try.

I dont know how long it will take to come back.

There must have been two barracks on Sheppey, or perhaps the Navy took over the Army barracks.

Mind you the Navy often put their men in dry dock on ships don't they? Rather than in barracks.

The Royal Garrison Artillery were based there to look after the 100 or more guns put in to help protect the approaches to Woolwich.

It began in the 1540s and according to Colin Penney's records some new buildings were put in 1862. I think they were in Minster.

http://content.ancestry.com/Browse/list.aspx?dbid=6598&path=Kent.Minster+in+Sheppey

This link mentions the barracks on the 1891 census.

Anyway, I dont know that he ever went there, only that his granddaughter thought he had been born there, but it seems likely to me that he did go there and that there is a good chance that is where he enlisted.

I do so hope he is a member of the family you found, but until I see some more records, that are readable or make sense, I dont like to make any assumptions.

I lived in Tamworth Staffordshire for 8 years so it would be wonderful if my Charles's father turned out to have been from there.

I will keep you posted as to developments.

Best wishes

Louise

[Valda]

I think the navy would be a bit piqued to think you thought it took anything over from the army! The Royal Artillery stationed at Sheerness to protect the Medway seem a much younger and smaller affair. Sheerness was a naval dockyard and barracks since in fact the C17th. The Royal Artillery appear to have only arrived in the 1860s. There was an earlier fort there but after the 1660s it was not rebuilt until 1862.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/20/newsid_2552000/2552135.stm

http://www.ecastles.co.uk/garrison.html
http://www.undergroundkent.co.uk/garrison_point_fort.htm

Regards
Valda

[LouiseB31]

Update re Charles Hilton (and a bit of a diversion involving his father in law)

I have now received a copy of Charles’s wedding certificate from the GRO in Roscommon in Ireland.

He married Catherine Brady on November 3rd 1879 in the parish church of St Peter (Church of Ireland) in the town of Athlone by licence.

The witnesses were named R Galvin and another Galvin as far as I can tell.

Charles’ father is Charles Hilton, Printer
And Catherine’s father is Philip Brady, Hair Dresser

Charles is already a Sergeant in the RA living at the barracks in Athlone, Catherine doesn’t have a job and is living at what looks like Court Devonish, Athlone.

A hair dresser! Fancy that, Philip Brady was from Dublin and had moved to Athlone, perhaps he cut the soldiers’ hair and that is how Charles met Catherine, in the shop? Anyway I am tickled pink with his occupation. I also noticed, when I came to enter his occupation onto my Gedcom, that I had hitherto found three Philip Bradys in the Dublin directory for 1850 before the family moved to Athlone. One of them is a hairdresser and perfumerer of 87 Capel Street, so that will be him, I dismissed him in favour of the grocer before...

They are both of full age

There is an entry in the birth index for Charles Hilton in 1849 in Essex (West Ham), as previously advised so I shall now order this but specify that I want the father to be Charles too.

If the certificate comes back and the mother’s name matches the entry one of you found on the census for the silk printer from Tamworth then I will be thrilled and really rather amazed.

I shall let you know.

Best wishes

Louise

[donna-paul]

well done louise

glad you got to the bottom of it

donna

x 

[Valda]

I've obviously got my fingers crossed for Charles in West Ham, however just in case, the 1881 census allows for a search on occupation and there were two Charles Hilton - printers

Charles Hilton abt 1823  Staffordshire, England Head  88 Chapel St, West Ham, Essex (occupation on this census  is just a printer)
Charles Hilton abt 1836  Brighton, Sussex, England Son  99 Church St, Brighton, Sussex, England - unmarried (as in 1871)

Which still leaves the first Charles as the main 'known' favourite.

Regards
Valda