Author Topic: John White Descendants Chart 1996  (Read 10745 times)

Offline familysleuth

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John White Descendants Chart 1996
« on: Sunday 06 July 14 10:16 BST (UK) »
Going further with my White family has been very frustrating so far, so I am hoping that this post will reach out to the family member who commissioned, or created a huge 'Descendants Chart' - a copy of which I was given a few years ago. Its a 20 page  listing  family members by generation, and was created on the  31 Oct 1996. Someone has gone to a LOT of trouble with this, so they were or are serious family historians.

John White was (according to his death cert in 1916) born in 1842, County Derry. He married Mary Nellon (or Nellen, Neylon, or Neilon etc) in 1865, Dunedin New Zealand. They lived in Orepuki and had at least 11 children. Mary was also from Ireland, according to her death certificate from County Kerry. She was born about 1847. Their ITM shows that they arrived independently to the Dunedin area in May and July of 1865. John's obituary says that he arrived a year before his marriage via Australia, where he was looking for gold.

If a family member recognises the chart or knows more detail about John and Mary, I would be delighted to hear from them. So far the common name of White  and differing ages (at their deaths I think family members were uncertain of details) plus the confusing spellings of Nellen etc has not allowed me to go very much further than very basic details of their lives.

 
Clarkson in Hull, East Riding; Paxton in Hull, Yorkshire; Lodge in Huddersfield and Liverpool; Shaw in Caistor, Lincolnshire; Noncon and Pope in London.

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Offline Jean Price

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Re: John White Descendants Chart 1996
« Reply #1 on: Monday 07 July 14 04:39 BST (UK) »
Hello,

There are several trees on Ancestry for your couple.

Regards
Jean
Fawcett, Down; Gibson, Ayrshire and Tasmania; James, Cornwall and Victoria Aus; Cox, Northamptonshire, Thomas, Gloucestershire; Albury, Berkshire,

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Online Ruskie

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Re: John White Descendants Chart 1996
« Reply #2 on: Monday 07 July 14 05:06 BST (UK) »
Would not your first port of call be the person who gave you the chart? Surely they would be able to tell you who gave it to them?  :-\

You would probably be wise to do your own research anyway (it sounds as though this is what you are doing). Their NZ marriage certificate would give more reliable estimates of age than their d/cs, so this would be the logical place to start I would think. I don't know what would be included on NZ marriage certificates - parent's names? ages? Place of birth?

Offline Janette

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Re: John White Descendants Chart 1996
« Reply #3 on: Monday 07 July 14 05:30 BST (UK) »
Hi,it is best to purchase the printouts rather than certificates,if you look here it will tell you what is on them

https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/dataCollected/

Cheers Janette

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Re: John White Descendants Chart 1996
« Reply #4 on: Monday 07 July 14 05:41 BST (UK) »
Hi,it is best to purchase the printouts rather than certificates,if you look here it will tell you what is on them

https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/dataCollected/

Cheers Janette

Sadly, parents not named in 1865....  :-\

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Re: John White Descendants Chart 1996
« Reply #5 on: Monday 07 July 14 20:52 BST (UK) »
Hi everyone, thanks for replying.
I was given the chart by my mother, who is now very elderly. She does not know where it came from. My immediate family left NZ for Australia(where I live) in the 1960's and I have never had much contact with my NZ relatives. Few are left. So very sadly I am not in contact with anyone - and have no idea where the chart originated - hence my inquiry online.

One of the trees on Ancestry is mine, and I have been in contact with other researchers, but found no-one who (a) has another copy of the chart or even knows about it or (b) can tell me anything more about John White and Mary Nellen from family knowledge or previous research.

I agree with you about the printouts and certificates: interestingly I did not send for these but was given them by a White family member I contacted who could tell me nothing about where they originated, did not have a copy of the chart, and added that they had come to a dead end in finding more about John and Mary. Now, looking at them more closely, I can see that whoever obtained them did so in 1993, possibly at the time all of that huge amount of research was being done which resulted in the chart. Or the date could be a coincidence too! I will eventually send for the originals.

I do have a copy of the original marriage certificate, and their ages are for John White - 'full' and Mary Nellen '-'. So I obtained their Intention to Marry and found there that John claims he is 23, and Mary that she is 18, and it is stated also that there was 'no person to give consent' in her case. I have contacted members of the NZGS and there are a couple who have these names as research interests, but after exploring a few leads, I found no connections at this stage.

Using the information on the death certificates - information often given by family members - I find that Mary was believed to have been in NZ for 54 years, which would make a time of arrival for her as 1863. She was listed as being 74, which puts a possible date of birth as 1843. However in 1865 when she married, she said she was 18 which indicates a birth for her in about 1847. I feel more inclined to go with her claim that she was 18, and that she was a possible new arrival to NZ. I have not been able to find her on a passenger list from Ireland to NZ so far.

John's death certificate says he was in NZ for 52 years, making a time of arrival as possibly 1864. This does tie in with information from a newspaper article I found saying that he had arrived in NZ from Australia about that time. His age in 1916 is given as 82, giving him a birth year of 1834 - but his own information is that he was 23 in 1865, making a birth date about 1842. Mary is listed as 78 years old at the time of his death (she was about 69/70)...... ah, families..... :)

So my line of inquiry now is trying to find a ship that John may have come to NZ on, from Australia. There are a few possibilities (none with ages that match!), so I need to look at the films of the records that exist. I have also tried to find Mary on a passenger list from Australia, but no luck there. This does not mean she didn't arrive from Australia..... not everyone was listed, records are not necessarily complete for shipping. Her name, too, with the variable spellings, does not make for easy searching....

John and Mary are my hardest relatives to research yet, but I live in hope. Cheers!
Clarkson in Hull, East Riding; Paxton in Hull, Yorkshire; Lodge in Huddersfield and Liverpool; Shaw in Caistor, Lincolnshire; Noncon and Pope in London.

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Re: John White Descendants Chart 1996
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 08 July 14 01:48 BST (UK) »
You seem to have been very thorough familysleuth.

Such a shame that you have a combination of difficulties - common name (so very difficult to find a John White entering and active in Australia prior to going to NZ) - the Irish connection is very often very difficult to follow up - and Mary's variable surname ....  :-\

Agree with you regarding their ages, and highly likely that Mary was underage. May be a fib, maybe not, that she did not have anyone to give consent to her marriage. ;) Lots of young girls travelled alone so she may not have had any family.

Have you asked for help with John in Australia - and his travel to NZ.

Although you have little or no contact with relatives in NZ, it might be valuable to bite the bullet and try to chase them up just in case they can fill in any gaps in your research.  :-\

PS. I may be wrong, but I don't see the surname White as being typically Irish. Stranger things have happened though and it is possible he had English origins further back. A very rough guide: http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/ It would be interesting to see if there is any record of his arrival into Australia in the hope that it gives place of origin and his age. Have you asked on the Australia board?

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Re: John White Descendants Chart 1996
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 08 July 14 13:09 BST (UK) »
Hi Ruski - yes, I would say that a Northern Ireland 'White' family would eventually be Scottish or English. There are not too many White families in Derry... there are some, though. Down is also a possibility. Another researcher pointed out that if Mary arrived with a sister, then the 'no-one to give consent' could still stand, particularly if a sister was unmarried, as it was rare for women to give permission in these cases. I am inclined to keep it simple, and start with the premise that the closest correct ages for John and Mary are those they claimed at their marriage, but I will consider that Mary could have been between 16 - 18 and if the younger age, she may have arrived with sisters. One of his children (or maybe his widow) proposed John as a member of the Otago Early Settlers Association just after his death. I could find more in their records if I am lucky. Otherwise its passenger records for John which are the most likely to be found. I did a search for every 'Mary' who came to NZ between 1863 - 1865 from 'ships to NZ site' as well as familysearch and drew a blank, and a search of PapersPast didn't get anywhere either, looking for mainly Irish passenger ships. I have also communicated with the remaining family I have in NZ and alas, none are 'family history fanatics'.
Thanks for your replies, and one day someone will be able to shed light on the Chart for me. Cheers!
Clarkson in Hull, East Riding; Paxton in Hull, Yorkshire; Lodge in Huddersfield and Liverpool; Shaw in Caistor, Lincolnshire; Noncon and Pope in London.

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Re: John White Descendants Chart 1996
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 08 July 14 13:34 BST (UK) »
Good luck with the search familysleuth.
At least by getting the names on rootschat anyone searching for the same names is likely to find this thread and be able to make contact with you.