Author Topic: John Hutchinson  (Read 4349 times)

Offline Ruskie

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Re: John Hutchinson
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 09 July 14 07:37 BST (UK) »
Hi JM,

Glad to have you aboard (I'm not too good with Australian resources).

I will guess that Roxy has Joseph's birth registration as she mentions the surname Narven (unusual name) but it would be interesting to find out other sources of variations of Ellen's surname.


Offline roxy51

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Re: John Hutchinson
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 09 July 14 08:30 BST (UK) »
Hello everyone.  I am overwhelmed by the response to my mysterious John.  Thank you so much.  What I have is Birth Certificate for Joseph born Winderdeen near Collector 29 Sep 1867 Father John Hutchinson aged 36, Shepherd born England , mother Ellen Narven, aged 36.  Not married. Cert copy of birth father John, mother Ellen Narver (both aged 36). She was born in Ireland.

Joseph's marriage certificate at Dubbo NSW 1906, Father deceased, Mother Ellen Narvan still living

Joseph's death certificate in Toowoomba Queensland 1915, father John, mother Ellen Nagel

John:  1867 Collector Police Court fight with another shepherd - both in the employ of James Chisholm.
1867 Collector Police Court ill treating a cow
1878 Goulburn Police Court charged with arson the property of G.H. Hay, Paling Yards, Amercrombie River. Charges dismissed.

The family then supposedly moved to Bathurst, NSW

Joseph married Mary Ann Galvin (sometimes known as Ryan).  She was from the Yass area.  The family moved to the Bell area in Queensland about 1907 and that's where my direct family starts.
Thanks again everyone, something for me to work with.


Offline majm

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Re: John Hutchinson
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 10 July 14 01:13 BST (UK) »
Hi Roxy,

Sorry for the long post, but I hope it is helpful.

Who was the informant on Joseph's birth cert?   I am expecting it was John Hutchinson himself.  Does it actually say "not married" .... I have a NSW BDM cert from 1858 where the child's father was the informant, and both parents are named, and it also says "not married".   

As both John and Ellen were in their mid 30s,  I would expect Ellen's surname to possibly be a married surname, rather than her maiden surname, but it all depends on what the informant's understanding was of the questions asked by the local registrar.   In the 1860s, the rural registrars were part time appointments, and quite often were undertaken by the Sheriff or his deputy or the clerks who worked for the Sheriff at the local court houses.   Afterall, there was not the population to support a full time position.    So, the info was obtained verbally, the registrar asking the questions, and writing down the answers in their ledger book, facing themselves.  The ledger was on the very wide counter used in the admin section of the court houses, and the counter was quite a high one.   Most informants had not achieved a uni education, so they could not read 'upside down' to check all the details exactly.   Then when the clerk had finished recording, the large ledger book was swung around and the informant was asked to "Sign here" ....    And many of those clerks were excellent at making indecipherable scribbles  ::)

As Joseph's birth cert notes his parents as 'not married' I will guess that the clerk did not even ask about any other children, (NSW BDM certs include details of the older siblings, when they are the issue of the marriage, so you can get their names and ages, or at least their gender and ages, and the gender of any who had already surcumbed).

But it is very likely that a 36 year old woman had previously given birth, so that Joseph may well have had older siblings, or half siblings.    As Ellen was alive when Joseph married, do you know if she was at the wedding?    I have some offline NSW resources, particularly for the Western Land Division of NSW so I will try to find some clues using the variations on her surname.   

Of course, you are actually seeking info back into John HUTCHINSON's origins, and Ellen's too.  But I am very NSW centric, so you will need other RChatters helping you with that earlier info.

Would you be able to please type up all the info on the NSW BDM for Joseph please. 

Here are the usual headings from that era:

 :) A number in a column on the far left of the official cert, but not noted on official transcriptions: (it is the line number in the local registrar, and these are now archived at NSW State Records, access is actually not permitted to these local registrars anymore).

 :) Date and place of birth of child:  (can include a street address or a property name, but often in rural districts, just a locality name …. It was the usual residence, sufficient details on the birth cert for the then postal system to deliver ordinary mail !)

 :) Given name of the child, and whether present or not (SURNAME is NOT found in this column, and “present” refers to was the child taken to the local registry office or not)

 :) Sex (Boy or Girl;  Male or Female)

 :) Father’s name  (Given names, and Surname)
Father’s then occupation
Father’s then age
Father’s birthplace (sometimes the village, and colony, other times, the county, and then country)

 :) Date and place of marriage
Previous issue (of THAT marriage)

 :) Mother’s given name, and maiden surname, age, and birthplace

 :) Informant (full name they were then using,  their relationship to the child, and their usual address)

 :)  :)  :)
{Then the name of the attending Doctor (or the word ‘’none”)
{The name of the midwife or witness to the birth
{The name of a third witness   
(only needed ONE name between these three ”{“ )

 :) The Name of the registrar making the local record, and the date and place.

Here’s a link to a sample that the NSW BDM has on its website.   It is for Henry LAWSON, a famous Australian Poet.  He was born at Grenfell, NSW, and his birth was registered at Forbes NSW.   

http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/resources/b1867-11928.pdf


Cheers,  JM

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Offline roxy51

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Re: John Hutchinson
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 10 July 14 02:13 BST (UK) »
Hi JM
Thanks for your info.  I will try and answer your questions

No in left hand side is 97

Date and place of child's birth is 29 September 1867 at Winderadeen near Collector NSW (this was a property owned by James Chisholm, John was a shepherd there)

Given name of child was Joseph, and not present.

Sex - boy

Fathers name - John Hutchinson, Shepherd, age 36, birthplace England

Date and place of marriage - not married

Mothers name - Ellen Narven, age 36, birthplace Ireland

Informant John Hutchinson, father, Witness Mrs Howard, Registered by C.S. Alexander on 6 November 1867 at Goulburn.

No attending doctor or midwife mentioned

BUT THEN on a certified copy of the birth No B110263, mother's name is Ellen Narver
and they were not married. Registration No 4897

I had the same thought that a woman aged 36 probably would have had previous children in those days. (although I did not have my only child until I was 41!!)

There was another John Hutchinson and wife Ellen who lived in Dungog NSW.  When I looked at the BDM for children born to them Joseph appears but I don't think this is the same family.

On Joseph's marriage certificate, they married on 20 February 1906 at Dubbo. John is deceased, occupation Labourer.  Ellen is alive but she is known as Ellen Narvan on the certificate.  Maybe she was illiterate and with her Irish accent it maybe Navin, Nevin, but where the Nagel came from I don't know. This was on Joseph's death certificate.  He died in 1915, mabe she married a Nagel after John's death????

Anyway you have all got me interested in  family history after a long malaise.

Thank you once again


Offline Ruskie

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Re: John Hutchinson
« Reply #13 on: Friday 11 July 14 14:13 BST (UK) »
Regarding Ellen's (various versions of her) surname ... I can see Narver and Narven possibly being an error with the last letter. There is not much difference between a little r and a little n and perhaps it was misread.  :)

The most likely would be Narvin/Narven/Narvan as this was given on both Joseph's birth and marriage certificate.

Death Certficate saying her name is Nagel? It is possible that she married Mr Nagel after John's death but it would be a huge coincidence that the surnames were so similar. As you are probably aware, information on d/cs may not be accurate and even close relatives as informants can get some details wrong.

Anyway, what I am trying to get to in a roundabout way, is that there is no record of the surname Narven (and variants) here:
http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Surnames.aspx

Nagel appears to be German.

Nevin and Navin do exist as (English) surnames.

Saying Narven over in my head in a (poor) Irish accent, I agree with you Roxy that Nevin is a possibility.

All this could be irrelevant is Narven is a previous married name.  ::)


JM, do you have any idea where to start looking for a death and burial for Ellen? (just hoping there may be clues on a d/c about earlier marriages, children etc ....  :-\)

Offline roxy51

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Re: John Hutchinson
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 22 July 14 08:10 BST (UK) »

Hi JM

Any joy on my John Hutchinson.  I have been off line for a while attending to more pressing matters!!  Many thanks for your help so far.  I discovered he also worked at Kippilaw as well as Windaerdeen (near Collector).  Both properties were owned by James Chisholm.  I have written to the Chisholm Clan website hoping they maybe able to supply names of people they employed. :)

Offline roxy51

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Re: John Hutchinson
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 10 September 14 06:38 BST (UK) »
Hi JM
Have not heard anything from you re my ancestor John Hutchinson.  I guess you have not had any success.  Can you let me know if you have

Offline Dundee

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Re: John Hutchinson
« Reply #16 on: Friday 21 July 17 02:13 BST (UK) »
Wrong thread   ;D

Offline majm

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Re: John Hutchinson
« Reply #17 on: Friday 21 July 17 05:15 BST (UK) »
Umm.... during 2014 my puter was on overload and was eventually replaced.   I cannot see if I did find further info to share with Roxy51.   I am sorry if I failed to keep you posted Roxy, and if you want me to re-check, please just ask.   I see you were online yesterday.

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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