One wedding rwo families?

[Trees]

I wonder if anyone can help me solve this puzzle please

In Sutton Coldfield there is a family headed by Joseph and Mary Ann BIRD.
The children are all baptised in Sutton Coldfield to Joseph a wire drawer and Mary Ann and range from
Maria Elizabeth born 10 Feb 1813 - Joseph not baptised but on the 1841 census born between 1821-1826.( he is the only one of the 7 children I have failed to find a baptism and birth for. The address is Penns.
Mary Ann appears on:
1841 HO107/1128/ 7 fo18 p 5 age 40
1851 HO107/2062 fo560 p 8 age 58
1861 RG 9/2187 fo 28 p 7 age 68
A burial in Sutton Coldfield 1838
43   Joseph BIRD   Near Penns    Novr 25th   52yrs   Jas Packwood
there is a baptism:
Baptized in 1793 Jan: 27th   A child of Joseph and Elizabeth RAY named Mary Ann born Sep: 23rd
so far so good
BUT
In Birmingham  there is a family also headed by Joseph and Mary BIRD
The children range from Betsey 1816 -Mary 1828 all baptised in St Martins to Joseph a bone turner and Mary
One of the daughters marries a Thomas RAY/REA
Mary appears on:
1841 HO107/1143/ 9 fo45 p15 age 55
1851 HO107/2062 fo 83 p14 age 64
1861 RG 9/2183 fo 81 p18 age 74

BURIAL in the Parish of St Philip Birmingham   Warwick in the Year 1839
981   Joseph BIRD   John Street   29th May   48 years   C Arnold
   (Buried at St Barthws Chapel)   <St Bartholomew’s Chapel>

BURIAL at the Parish Church of Saints Peter and Paul Aston near Birmingham in the Year 1861
Mary Widow of Joseph BIRD      Aston New Town   May12th   74years   By W G Morton Curate

baptism St Philips
1791 Baptized November    28   Joseph to john & Betty BIRD

BUT I can only find one wedding
1812 entry 956 page 661Edgbaston
Joseph BIRD of this parish bachelor and Mary Ann RAY of the same spinster were married in this church by banns this nineteenth day of March in the Year One thousand eight hundred and twelve by me Charles Pinell minister both sign in the presence of Elizabeth Ray and John Merrick both sign

Edgbaston is quite a way South of Sutton Coldfield
The Birmingham children are all to mother Mary and the Sutton ones mother Mary Ann
the apparent ages of both mothers and fathers fit the marriage and children
There may be a John born 1811 in the second family but that would leave a five year gap and make Joseph 19 when the child was born He seems to be 5 years younger than his Mary.
Is it pure coincidence that Ann from the second married Thomas Ray whose father just happens to be from Sutton Coldfield and whose father was a cousin of Mary Ann?

It is a strange tangle but the marriage between Ann Bird and Thomas Ray links both families to my tree. My direct ancestors are the Joseph and Mary couple form Birmingham so I would love to know who Mary was.

There must be a second marriage somewhere can anyone help find it please

[jim1]

Just to add to the confusion there's a Mary Ann Ray born 1786 B'ham to John & Ann & in 1791 an Elizabeth Ray to John & Elizabeth which might be the same John remarrying.
That might indicate the Mary Ann Ray married to Joseph Bird is this one.
On 1 census this Mary Ann gives her birthplace as Great Barr which is not far from Sutton Coldfield & the other B'ham, so no help there.
To add a bit more there's a Mary Ray marrying a Sam. Tandy in 1812 B'ham.
Not much help is it.

jim

[avm228]

Have you ruled out the marriage of Joseph Bird to Mary Allin, 14 Oct 1810, St Peter Harborne?

[Trees]

Oh dear I missed the Mary Ann of john and Ann which parish was that please/
Confusing I'm turning circles which don;t seem to be ever decreasing 
I thought at one time I had this nailed but decided to take a second look now more information has come on line...some how I wish I'd left well alone....but I want to know who my greatx? grandparents really were
Strangely I was just looking at the Harbourn couple its not too far out either

Thanks for trying
boy they are a trying lot enough to challenge the best of us. But only the best can be found on Rootschat so I am sure we will get to the truth in time

[Trees]

The one from Harbourne could be interesting a Mary Allin was baptised in WEDNESBURY 24 march 1785 to a Joseph and Mary Allen Wednesbury isn't that far from Great Barr which is where my Mary says she is from on the 1861 census so I wonder have we found Mary?

To add to the confusion there is a Mary Ann Morgan REA  b\ptised 21 Feb 1787 to Samuel and Ann at St martins Birmingham

Added no it isn't the mary from Wednesbury there was a Mary Allin baptised in Harborne in 1783 so not likely to be confused with Great Barr
I wonder if the Great Barr refers to the fact they were living in Brikiln Rd at one time so she said she was from there rather than born there?

[Trees]

Taking another look at this pair in case more information is now available.
Joseph and Mary Bird had Betsey 1816, Ann 1819, George 1821, Caroline 1824, Sarah 1826 and Mary 1828
There is also a John baptised to a Joseph and Mary in 1811 if he is part of the family why the big gap?
The mother is always Mary never Mary Ann
There are two Joseph/Mary weddings in Birmingham Mary Stevens in 1805 and Mary BRIGGS 1808
But if either is the one why the lack of children before 1816?
I think the most likely Joaeph is the son of John and Betty baptised 28 Nov 1791 going on the name of his first daughter and would make it likely that the John 1811 was also one of their children.
I wonder Will I ever find who they really were?

[Trees]

Ther is a third possible marriage all a bit early
Joseph Bird to  Mary Stevens 7 Nov 1805 St Martin,
Joseph Bird to Mary BRIGGS 28 Jul 1806 St Philip
Joseph Bird to Mary Allin, 14 Oct 1810, St Peter Harborne there was a Mary Allin baptised in Harborne in 1783 our Mary was born 1786 is this too far out? This would be good if John born 1811 is in our family
That still leaves the question why the gap in children 1811-1816 and in the first two cases why no children untill 1811?

Mary from her death and three censuses should be born about 1786 so would have been 19 at the time of that first marriage no problem there