Author Topic: (The) Princess of Wales pub, Wentworth Street  (Read 13550 times)

Offline [Ray]

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,270
  • UK Census information Crown Copyright
    • View Profile
Re: (The) Princess of Wales pub, Wentworth Street
« Reply #18 on: Tuesday 22 July 14 17:22 BST (UK) »
"The wise man knows how little he knows, the foolish man does not". My Grandfather & Father.

"You can’t give kindness away.  It keeps coming back". Mark Twain (?).

Offline Niggles

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 55
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: (The) Princess of Wales pub, Wentworth Street
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday 22 July 14 22:03 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the map Bookbox

According to this old bailey case, George Street was next to the Princess of Wales (per the questioning of James Hanley) . George Street is near the eastern end of Wentworth Street on the Horwoods map and on the Spitalfields side of the road.

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18241028-58&div=t18241028-58&terms=princess|of|wales|wentworth|street#highlight

There is another Old Bailey record that refers to the Princess of Wales as Black Hell, nice!

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18160710-88&div=t18160710-88&terms=princess|of|wales|wentworth|street#highlight
Parker - Shoreditch, Finsbury, Islington, Ely
Manley - Shoreditch, Hackney
Moody - Hackney, Walthamstow
Lazzam - City of London, Shoreditch, Bethnal Green
Coburn - Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire
Tarrant - Cambridgeshire
Taylor- Essex, Cambridgeshire

Offline Ruskie

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 26,198
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: (The) Princess of Wales pub, Wentworth Street
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 23 July 14 03:35 BST (UK) »
"George-street is just by the Princess of Wales"

Still a little vague, but it all adds to narrowing the location down.  :)

You would generally expect a pub to be on a corner, but thinking more about it, it often is not the case. If The Princess of Wales was on the corner you might expect them to have said this in the Old Bailey account.

However there is this which looks like it knocks my theory about it not being on a corner on the head:
"she ran in at the corner door of the public-house; I went in at another door in Wentworth-street; one man ran out past me, and the prisoner followed him"
This does imply it is on a corner ... I think. :-\

There is mention of some ground behind the pub: "Hanley took him at the Princess of Wales, (behind which is the ground we took the prosecutrix to"

Looking at Horwood there is a rather large open area (courtyard style) behind the buildings facing Wentworth and surrounding streets. Presumably this is 'the ground' referred to in the Old Bailey document.

The entire area north of Wentworth Street, sadly, appears to be a mixture of 60s and 90s new builds - even the street layouts have been changed quite a lot (I think George St has gone), and there are definitely no pubs there today. There is something opposite The Princess Alice which may have been a pub but both architecture and location is wrong I think.  :-\

Aren't the old maps amazing to look at - smallholdings and open land in central London?

Offline Bookbox

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,912
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: (The) Princess of Wales pub, Wentworth Street
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 23 July 14 11:00 BST (UK) »
I can't find any further information about this pub and wherea in Wentworth Street it would have been
As regards the location of the pub, Ruskie’s proposal (corner of Wentworth Street/George Street) seems more than feasible.

Are there any other records I could try to find out about the history of this pub? or can anyone else find anything about it at all?
Depending on your level of interest ...

(1) Contact Tower Hamlets Local Studies (at the library in Bancroft Road) and ask what documentation they have on pubs in that specific area in the late 1700s.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/018yw/

(2) Consult the registers of Licensed Victuallers for Middlesex held at London Metropolitan Archives (series MR/LV). Information in this pdf file ...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/018yu/

Perhaps you can visit LMA yourself? Otherwise, you would have to use their research service, or have someone else visit on your behalf.


Offline ShaunJ

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 24,100
    • View Profile
Re: (The) Princess of Wales pub, Wentworth Street
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday 23 July 14 11:44 BST (UK) »
Some later occupants from the Sun Fire Insurance Records:

Thomas Sims 1822-3 victualler

Prudence Cope 1823 "gent"

William Pollard 1826 victualler

Each of these is in respect of the Princess of Wales, Wentworth Street.

There's also a Philip Ritterspack, victualler in 1811 indexed at the "Prince of Wales" Wentworth Street.
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline ShaunJ

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 24,100
    • View Profile
Re: (The) Princess of Wales pub, Wentworth Street
« Reply #23 on: Wednesday 23 July 14 12:26 BST (UK) »
My guess would be that it is one of the corner buildings left and right of the first "T" in "...Th St" in this Horwood segment: http://tinyurl.com/nrfal46

Not the corner of George St (that's not mentioned in any of the insurance records) but at the entrance to the ground behind. .
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline ShaunJ

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 24,100
    • View Profile
Re: (The) Princess of Wales pub, Wentworth Street
« Reply #24 on: Wednesday 23 July 14 12:40 BST (UK) »
Philip Ritterspack died in 1812. His Will mentions a house at 53 Wentworth Street, and also a public house in Wentworth Street called the "Prince of Wales".
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Ruskie

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 26,198
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: (The) Princess of Wales pub, Wentworth Street
« Reply #25 on: Wednesday 23 July 14 12:54 BST (UK) »
My guess would be that it is one of the corner buildings left and right of the first "T" in "...Th St" in this Horwood segment: http://tinyurl.com/nrfal46

Not the corner of George St (that's not mentioned in any of the insurance records) but at the entrance to the ground behind. .

I think you might be onto something with this theory Shaun.

I had my eye on that 'alley' and wondered why it would be so wide.

I also thought it odd that in the various descriptions on the Old Bailey documents that none directly said the pub was on the corner of Wentworth and George which you would expect them to have done.

So the pub is likely to have been situated on one of the corners of the entrance to the ground behind the pub.  :) (near the letter T of Wentworth, on the map in Shaun's link above)

Offline ShaunJ

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 24,100
    • View Profile
Re: (The) Princess of Wales pub, Wentworth Street
« Reply #26 on: Wednesday 23 July 14 16:59 BST (UK) »
Another landlord: William Screen in 1808

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/print.jsp?div=t18080914-6
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk