Debenham Tower Mill

[Rezillo]

Thanks Windy,

This is what I have for the 'first' Framsden Webster miller (my x3 great grandfather).  I've pm'd you my address if you want to be sent any of the source stuff.

I've got a similar amount of info I could post on his son Edmund and his grandson Edmund Samuel but that could be a bit much for one post.

SAMUEL WEBSTER b1799 Framlingham

Samuel Webster born 1799, son of Edmund and Deborah Webster (late
Whiting/Wightman in the SRO baptism microfiche records) at Framlingham.
I found out last week that the family descendants have an anecdote of
Bob Webster being told by his grandfather that they were descended from
Whitemans but no-one knew any more about the connection until now!

Children:

Samuel b1825 Framsden -becomes a miller at Framsden then farmer.

Edmund b1828 Framsden - becomes miller at Framsden (miller employing 2
men in 1861) then cattle dealer by 1871. Son Edmund Samuel becomes miller at
Framsden by 1881, employing one man.

Michael b1830 (baptised Framsden) -becomes farrier.

James abt.1832 Framsden - becomes the miller at Aythorpe Roding and then
High Easter in Essex (starts as journeyman miller to Frederik Cullum at
Watermill House, Kettleburgh in 1861).

John abt. 1835 Framsden - becomes miller at Pattiswick, Essex
(Blackwater watermill) ending there as a farmer employing 2 millers, 3
men and 1 boy.

William abt. 1838 - becomes bleach worker/wagoner in Yorkshire.

Hannah 1840 -becomes servant/housewife/nursemaid.

Rebeca 1844 - servant/housewife


Career

1823 Samuel marries Lucy Creasy of Framsden at Framsden. Not literate - signs
name with X on marriage record.
1841 Framsden census - ag lab.
1851 Framsden census - master? (not entirely clear writing) miller - quite a leap! Place of birth:
Framlingham.
Post 1851, Samuel moves to Thornham Magna to be miller there and run a farm at
Stoke Ash with son Samuel.
1855 Recorded as miller and farmer at Thornham Magna in Whites Directory
1856 Wife Lucy dies at Thornham Magna.
1857 Death at Thornham Magna. His and Lucy's gravestone is in Thornham
Magna churchyard.

Other relevant info:

Son Samuel's marriage to Frances Kemp in Oct 1851 at Framsden. The
Record Office microfiche of the register has Samuel Webster, miller
(father Samuel, miller) marrying Frances Kemp, servant (father Robert,
gardener). Witnessed by Edmund (his brother) and Mary Ann Webster.

This confirms that Samuel senior was a miller. This is the only
reference I have to Samuel junior being a miller; in the 1851 census he
is an ag lab at Framsden, lodging next door to where his future wife is
a servant. By 1861 he is a farmer at Thelnetham. He later moves to
Braiseworth and then Bedingfield.

Move to Thornham, post 1851 census.

Samuel senior's move date to Thornham mill and to farm at Stoke Ash not
precisely known but in 1854, son Michael is married in London and his
father Samuel is recorded as a farmer, which he wasn't at Framsden, so
assumed at Thornham by then.

Samuel junior has his first daughter baptised at Stoke Ash in 1852.
Although it is possible his father moved there later to join him, it is
likely that his father led the move as both the Stoke Ash farm and the
Thornham millhouse contents are sold on his death. This means that
Samuel senior becomes the miller at Thornham Magna some time between
1851 and 1852. The executors notice beneath the sale notice implies he
may have continued to be the miller at Framsden up to his death in 1857
but this is not clear. After his father's death, his son up sticks and
moves his family to Thelnetham. He does not return to milling.

[windy_miller]

Blimey!  I'll read through tomorrow.  Lots v interesting though

Windy

[Rezillo]

Here's his son, Edmund Webster b1828:

Children:

Mary Anne b1852 (marries George Benjamin Morphey, a miller who in his early days is working for Thomas Bond at Framsden - 1869 Framsden assault court case mentions this. Reference to "Thomas Bond's mill" and Thomas is called as a witness. Edmund's son later represents George in a legal dispute at Grundisburgh Mill in 1887).
Edmund Samuel b1853.
Edith b1855.


1828 - born/baptised at Framsden

1841 census - living with family of John Bond, farmer, at Framsden.

Feb 1851  marries Mary Anne Walne/Warne, the illegitimate daughter of Harriett Warne (Harriet marries John Brunning of Framsden, six years after Mary Anne's birth). Microfiche of record has Edmund Webster, miller, marrying Mary Anne Walne. Witnesses by Samuel Webster (his brother) and Frances Kemp. Samuel and Frances marry later that year and their marriage is witnessed by Edmund and Mary Anne.

1851 census - living with mother-in-law Harriett and her husband at Framsden. Described as miller journeyman.

1861 census - living as head of family at Framsden. Miller employing two men. As his father appears to be a master miller there in 1851 then goes to Thornham and dies in 1857, it may be that Edmund takes over as miller at Framsden after his death.

[1869 Thomas Bond miller at Framsden - see court case above]

1871 census. Living with wife at Framsden. Occupation is dealer. Perhaps the depression has hit his milling business. His son Edmund at this time is a miller's assistant with Edmund's brother, James, at Aylthorpe Roding in Essex.

1880 Evicted from his home by Lord Tollemache.

1881 census. Cattle dealer. Living with his son Edmund in Mill Road, Framsden, who has returned to the village and is a miller employing one man (may be Robert Woods on same page) and is head of the household.

1891 census - still living with son Edmund at the Mill House, Framsden. Occupation dealer.

1900 Dies at Framsden



And Samuel senior's grandson, Edmund Samuel:

Children:

Samuel ("Sam") Webster b1877
Twin brother Edmund dies as infant.

1861 - Framsden, scholar

1871 - Mill House, Aythorpe Roding, Essex - miller's assistant for uncle, James Webster

1876 - marries Laura Eade, daughter of Samuel Eade at Framsden. Edmund described as miller on marriage record (SRO fiche).

1878 - Laura dies (possible childbirth complications - guess)

1881 - Mill Road, Framsden. Miller employing one man. Probably the Robert Woods mentioned above as in January 1883, a Robert Woods set fire to a haystack in Framsden and was taken to court, where Edmund testified that he was his employee at the time. Head of house; his father and mother living with him.

1891 - Miller, Mill House, Framsden.

1901 - Miller (on own account). Next door is William Bond (worker) miller/journeyman.

1906 - Marries Rebecca Grimwade of Framsden (at Lewisham!)

1908 - Kellys Directory for Framsden; described as "miller (wind and steam)"

1911 - Buys Debenham Tower Mill for £300 (Framlingham Weekly News 08 July 1911 -sale of Debenham Hall Estate, property of late J W Read. Mr Webster of Framsden listed as buyer of tower mill, residence, paddock and buildings)

1911 - Miller, Framsden

1939 - Death, Edmund "of Framsden Mill, Framsden" according to probate index.

[kentsuffolkheritage]

Hi, sorry to butt in but i was drawn to your discussion with regards Benjamin Edmund Webster Morphy  born Grundisburgh, Suffolk 1878. My family are descendants of Mary Ellen Morphy b.1880 in Maldon (nee Purchas) his wife.
 We have hit a brick wall as to what happened after Sybil Florence was born 1902.
does the Court case you refer to have anything to do with this ? We cannot find a Death record for Benjamin Edmund Webster Morphy. Mary Ellen Morphy was my Great grandmother via her daughter Mary Emily born 1910.
We have managed to trace Sybil's family line but Benjamin just seems to disappear.
Any help or suggestions in filling in the blanks gratefully received.

[Rezillo]

In 1911,  Benjamin is living with his mother at Wickham Market as Edmund Morphew (rollerman, flour miller), single, along with daughter Florence Morphew. PoBs Grundisburgh and Maldon. His wife appears to be a servant in Kensington at that time (this may be a coincidental name link).

I don't know why he is using middle names for himself and his daughter unless he is trying to lie low without actually giving false info on the census.

His father's court case was to do with intervening in an assault. He was not the principal party involved.

[kentsuffolkheritage]

thanks Rezillo, The Kensington link is correct Benjamin and Mary had split up by 1906 and she had to work as a lady's maid to support herself, my grandmother b1910 was fostered out to a child nurse at age 4 months listed as Mary Morfi on the 1911 census we found Benjamin/Edmund too (hiding?) in the 1911 Census in Suffolk with his mother and young child.
My grandmother Mary Emily took his Surname and there was no divorce. My great grandmother kept her married name.  The 1921 census may shed some more light on things but it's a long wait !
How did you find the Court case information ? Thanks once again.

[Rezillo]

The court case was either from the Findmypast newspaper search section or from the Gales 19thC newspaper archive. For the latter, Suffolk County Council Libraries webpages provide an online login  where you can enter your library card number for free access from home. Once that's done, the Connected Histories website works for searching it as well.

The Ipswich Journal 25 December 1869. Page 7

[edit] It was Findmypast. In the Newspapers and Periodicals section, narrow the Search range to the above date, then put Framsden in the Search field.

Also see Framlingham Weekly News 15 January 1870 - it looks as if Benjamin was acquitted at the subsequent trial, if I've read it right, and James Eade was convicted.

There's also a case involving the mill at Grundisburgh - dispute over fixtures on leaving.

The Ipswich Journal 22 April 1887

Finally, on a mill-related note, the Bury and Norwich Post of 4th April 1827 has:

"On the 17th ult. a mill was blown down at Framsden of this county. The sails, top and part of the body were carried wholly off. Fortunately, the miller had left the mill about two minutes before".

[another edit]

Ipswich Journal 4 September 1824 - Lease for sale for newly built tower windmill at Framsden

The Ipswich Journal 13 December 1845 - Framsden post windmill for sale; applications to Thomas Bond

The Suffolk Chronicle 17 July 1847 - Nearly new windmill at Framsden for sale freehold, owned by Thomas Bond.

The Suffolk Chronicle 24 July 1847 -  confirmation of success of above sale.

The Suffolk Chronicle 18 December 1852 - Tower windmill at Framsden and dwelling house for sale

[Dulverton]

I have (rather belatedly) just across your interesting article on Debenham mill, where you mentioned the name of Robert BOLTON as being the miller.
I thought that you may be interested to know that by 1846 Robert and his family had moved to Bentley (water?) mill. Robert had married a close cousin Harriet ( a common trait in the Bolton family!).
Unfortunately by 1860 both Robert & Harriet had died.
The couples eldest son James married his cousin  Sarah and ran the mill until around 1871/72; by 1872 the family (plus two of James' siblings) had emigrated and were found to be living in Flemington, Victoria.

[Suffolk Mawther]

Interesting thread, I can recall very well climbing up the various ladders to the top of Framsden wind mill when 8 months pregnant in 1975. We often drive past and I wonder how I did that! Confine myself to the lower floors these days 

SM ...