Author Topic: Delany / Delaney of Cork and Kerry  (Read 4645 times)

Offline hallmark

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Re: Delany / Delaney of Cork and Kerry
« Reply #90 on: Tuesday 12 June 18 20:52 BST (UK) »
Probably that Arthur though no mention of the son in the Admon.


Probably.

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Offline hallmark

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Re: Delany / Delaney of Cork and Kerry
« Reply #91 on: Tuesday 12 June 18 21:34 BST (UK) »
The wiki referred to Tarbert not that the Lawlors had gone to Tarbert.

The text you have snipped from the "A history of the family of Cairnes or Cairns Papers" are two successive footnotes. The State Papers reference does not support the conjecture about whether Burke had got it right or not, indeed those papers were nearly 20 years before the supposed birth of Jeremiah -


Why would the State Papers of 1600's  support the conjecture about whether Burke had got it right or not when Burke conjected 200 years later??

They didn't know what Burke was going to conject!

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Offline Gilby

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Re: Delany / Delaney of Cork and Kerry
« Reply #92 on: Tuesday 12 June 18 22:11 BST (UK) »
I only got as far as reading the first post tonight.  Have just skimmed the rest - they need more study.

The 1769 Deed at https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-7SZ6?i=257&cat=185720 looks like a bit of a manoeuvre by James the Lawyer.

What do you mean?  What does it look like he's trying to do in your opinion?

I'm a bit thrown by the bit about Newton Radford filing a bill in the court of chancery against James Lawlor, but apart from that my understanding of it is that James Lawlor Sr. put land in trust (via Radford?) who was then to pay the interest etc to James Lawlor Jr. in exchange for a fee of 11s?

Offline Gilby

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Re: Delany / Delaney of Cork and Kerry
« Reply #93 on: Tuesday 12 June 18 22:13 BST (UK) »
100% NOT the Monaghan ones who are still around in Monaghan!!

Ballylongford Browns!!

it would be nice to think they were from the Kenmare family,   and as you can see they do connect!
,
,
,



Sorry, you’ve lost me a bit.  Where is that snippet from?  Where does Ballylongford come into things?

But what does Ballylongford have to do with my Brownes?   :-\

Offline Gilby

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Re: Delany / Delaney of Cork and Kerry
« Reply #94 on: Tuesday 12 June 18 22:17 BST (UK) »
The wiki referred to Tarbert not that the Lawlors had gone to Tarbert.

The text you have snipped from the "A history of the family of Cairnes or Cairns Papers" are two successive footnotes. The State Papers reference does not support the conjecture about whether Burke had got it right or not, indeed those papers were nearly 20 years before the supposed birth of Jeremiah -


Why would the State Papers of 1600's  support the conjecture about whether Burke had got it right or not when Burke conjected 200 years later??

They didn't know what Burke was going to conject!


The snippet you posted made it look like the Calendar of State papers was the reference to the bit about Jeremiah.

But the reference was actual for the stuff about the O'Lalors coming from Laois in about 1607.  I think that's what John was trying to point out.    ???

Offline John Falvey

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Re: Delany / Delaney of Cork and Kerry
« Reply #95 on: Tuesday 12 June 18 22:59 BST (UK) »
I've not quite got my head around the notion of Protestant Discovery Bills which is what I think the Newton Radford bill is. However given the sums involved were often nominal there does seem to be an element of collusion between the Catholic and Protestant parties.

"The process, however, was in fact also used by canny Catholics to protect themselves, by employing a ‘collusive discovery’. Working with a trusted Protestant associate or agent, a spurious bill of discovery would be obtained, which on paper would see the property in question assigned to the Protestant, but in reality it would continue to be enjoyed by the Catholic.
 The smokescreen of protection afforded by this legal manoeuvre was not infrequently completed by registering a deed of trust in the Registry of Deeds." - https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/a-most-valuable-storehouse-of-history/

Offline jc33a

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Re: Delany / Delaney of Cork and Kerry
« Reply #96 on: Thursday 14 June 18 09:37 BST (UK) »
Hi all, this is a fascinating and incredibly well sourced string of comments. I have been doing a one name study on the Lalor clan of Laois, which has also looked at what happened to them after some were transplanted to Kerry in 1608. The Lalors were one of the seven septs of Laois. Under the O'Mores they spent much of the 16th century fighting the English until their defeat in 1601. A planter and adventurer of Irish ancestry named Patrick Crosbie, who had lands in Laois and Kerry took of the task of transplating the most troublesome members of the septs to Kerry. His story is told in this article by Lord Walter Fitzgerald in 1923: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25513295 .

His brother John Crosbie was Bishop of Ardfert 1600-1621, and was married to Winifred (oonah) O'Lalor of Laois. See the Lalors of Cregg pedigree in Burke's Landed Gentry.

Her sister, Honora was married to Thomas Cantillon of Ballyheigue. She and two other Lalors - Timothy (Teig) and Daniel (Donnell) were recorded in his post mortem inquistion in 1613. The details of this PMI - along with a fanciful and fascinating maternal line recorded in an old O'Connell pedigree - is recorded in an article on the Cantillons by Antoin Murphy: https://mises.org/library/richard-cantillon%E2%80%94banker-and-economist

The Lalors seem to have settled around Ballyheigue and Ardfert rather than at Tarbert. They are mentioned as fighting on both sides in the 1640s wars (a Captain Lalor burnt down the Ardfert Cathedral). But then tthere is no record till the mid 1700s.

The Ardfert Wills index lists a Daniel Lalor in 1746. He is, I suspect, the Daniel Lawlor of Traly who conformed to the CHurch of Ireland 17/8/1746, probably to secure the inheritance of his sons. His sons may have included James Lawlor MD of Castlelough, and Jeremiah Lawlor of Ballyheigue, ancestor of the Lawlors of Tralee. The history of this latter branch is recorded by 19th century antiquarian Henry Cairnes Lawlor: https://archive.org/stream/historyoffamilyo00lond#page/280/mode/2up

John


Cherry, Hertfordshire
Benyon, Shropshire
Hockings, Devonshire
Keaveny, Ireland (Offaly, Galway)
Webb, Gloucstershire (Coaley)
Lawlor, Ireland (Laois)
Russell/Leitch, Ireland (Tyrone/Donegal)
Yore, Ireland (Meath)
Etherington, Yorkshire (East Riding)
Dowling/Dooling, Ireland (Dublin)

Offline John Falvey

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Re: Delany / Delaney of Cork and Kerry
« Reply #97 on: Sunday 17 June 18 09:28 BST (UK) »
Bit of a side-line here, but there is a very well sourced genealogy of Dorothea Bland/ Crumpe's family at http://anthonyjcamp.com/page13.htm

Offline Gilby

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Re: Delany / Delaney of Cork and Kerry
« Reply #98 on: Monday 18 June 18 22:48 BST (UK) »
Hi, John 2, as I may have to call you.  Thanks for your post.  I spent half the weekend writing up my notes on the Lawlors.  They’re a fascinating lot and have introduced me to a perspective of Irish history I previously knew very little about.

I’ve more or less got it to the point where I can park it for a while and get back to catch up on recent posts here.  I’m sure there are a few deeds I haven’t read yet.

John F – gosh, I love the connection to the mistress of William IV.  I just had a browse through Wikipedia looking at some of their noble descendants…